Sunday 17 March 2013

Why I Believe in +2 For Band Size


What with the growing knowledge of bra fitting, and the spread of helpful forums like Bratabase, 32D, and others, I'm beginning to think we've all gone off the deep end a bit when it comes to the tightness of bra bands. Lots and lots of people are learning that bras stores like Victoria's Secret will fit you into a too-loose band by adding inches to your measurement. The protest against this takes the form of the "War on Plus Four", and there seems to be a generalized feeling that the only proper response is to use +0 instead. +0 means that to find your band size, you just measure your underbust and use that measurement in inches as your band size. I have come to strongly disagree with this method!

Meanwhile, there has been backlash to +0 as well. Most Polish bloggers and forum members disagree with it. This excellent blog post on "Reverse Letterphobia" calls it into question. Ewa Michalak's size calculators don't use +0, but British customers tend to therefore ignore that calculator. There’s been a lot of clamoring to allow for reasons that different systems could occasionally work, and people stressing that +0 is only a starting point. But I feel differently. I’m actually a big believer in +2. I believe we should measure our underbust and add 2 inches to get our band size, and frankly, I don't think that's 'just a starting point'. I think it's the system that would work best for most people. In fact, I think most of the bra fitting stores that give good fits and don’t use measuring tapes typically do give a fit that is +2, not +0. I measure 27.5 inches around. I wear a 30 band. The brilliant bra store that fitted me didn't use measuring tapes, and put me in a 30 band, which fits me very comfortably. My sister measures about the same. She wears a 30 band. My best friend is a bit smaller and wears a 30 band. None of us experience fit issues.

I spend almost a year wearing 28 backs because I became convinced that since that was what matched my measurements, it was therefore what I should wear. I felt that I needed a tight back because I experienced a lot of back pain. To my shock I later discovered, upon switching to 30 backs, that the majority of the back pain I had been experiencing was NOT because of the weight of my boobs, nor because of a too-loose band. Quite the reverse, I was experiencing pain because the very tight bands were not allowing any breathing room and I got a dull ache from being so compressed all day in a band that had absolutely no extra stretch in it.

I often see reviews on bra stores’ websites or on Bratabase where someone suggests that the back is too loose because it fastens easily on the first wear, or because they can fit their hand underneath it. Being able to fit your hand underneath your band, fasten it comfortably on the first try-on, or stretch it away from your body does NOT mean that it is necessarily too small. It just means that the band has stretch, as it well should. In fact, there are only two reasons you should try a tighter band:
1.  If the band rides up beyond the natural angle it sits at (compare to its angle to the cups when it's off you to make sure it isn't just shaped in a way that makes it appear to be riding up); or 
2. Your center gore is not tacking to your chest BUT the cups still fit when you press it to your body. 
If a band does not feel tight, that does not automatically mean that it is too loose; a band that does not feel tight is, in fact, a sign of comfort, and that is good. There is no reason you should seek out a feeling of excessive tightness. 

Another oft-quoted line in support of +0 is the concept that we don’t add inches to our pants measurements, so we shouldn’t add them to our bra measurements. True, mostly. But check out measurements on Bratabase or a similar database, or measure your own bra. A 30 band bra typically measures only about 23 inches unstretched, and stretches to about 31-33. You don’t want your bra band to be constantly stretched to the maximum—we would never expect that with any other item of clothing. Rather, you want it in a comfortable zone where your measurement lies in between the maximum stretched measurement and the unstretched measurement. That’s what the stretch is FOR. Keep in mind, too, that stores like Victoria's Secret usually add more like 6 inches to the measurement, which really is excessive. But adding 2 inches is not in the same zone of inaccuracy.

Here are some signs your band is too small: 1. The hooks are getting pulled slightly out of their stitching. This should NOT happen in a bra that fits. 2. You get a dull ache that is relieved by trying a larger band or just taking off your bra at the end of the day. 3. You get red marks and chafing and feel like all bras are uncomfortable, even well-worn ones.

Yes—these things can happen for other reasons. But for the most part, you should wear the LARGEST band you can wear without it riding up. That’s why women with smaller or lighter boobs often find that +4 works just fine for them and doesn’t ride up—they don’t have the weight pulling the bra down in front and up in back, so a looser band is far more comfortable and a tighter one is totally unnecessary.

If you ask me, band size is NOT the most important thing about a bra. It is FAR more important to find a large enough cup size. When I was wearing a 34DD previous to being fitted in a 30GG, I never had big problems with the band riding up, and when I did, it was seriously the least of my worries. My big problem was that the cups were so small. That’s why I was uncomfortable, that’s why I had to readjust throughout the day. A well-fitted band simply helps stabilize the cups, but if your cups aren’t big enough, then that’s your biggest problem. If I’d gotten refitted at a store that offered larger cup sizes but used +4, I would have been fit into a 32G, and guess what? That would have worked just fine. A 30 band is MORE supportive, but a 32 would be perfectly adequate as long as the cups were big enough. On the other hand, a 30 band bra would have NEVER improved my issues unless it was at least a GG cup. Anything smaller than that would have just presented the same old problems.

Blasphemy? Perhaps. I’ve sat on this for a long time because I don’t want to be seen as disagreeing, disrespecting, or sabotaging the full-bust community. But I feel pretty strongly about this and so I have to post it. I know I am probably going to get some flak for this post, and I know the vast majority of US/UK bloggers are going to disagree. That’s okay. Everyone is entitled to make their own fit choices. However, I do believe that there has been a bit too much of suggestions on forums that people try smaller and smaller bands even when they really don't need to. Life is way too short to wear a bra that compresses your body. Of course, it’s totally up to you if it's your body, and I know some people do like to wear really tight bands. I just don’t like to see people telling others that they need to use +0 when doing so can cause more harm than good. So I'm placing my full support in the +2 camp. Actually, I don't know if that is a camp. But if others agree, maybe we can make it into one.

79 comments:

  1. I'll join your camp! I measure about 30 inches underbust, and I wear mostly 32 bands.

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  2. You obviously feel very strongly about this, and I definitely can see where you're coming from, because too big cups + too little band can cause fit issues just like the opposite problem. What with horrid fitting advice (even not accounting for the +inches stuff) out there, I truly think "reverse letterphobics" are in the minority, which isn't to say that it isn't a significant concern. I think the issue comes when you start seeing +0 as a must rather than a starting point. A lot of people, such as yourself, are comfortable with a band 2 inches (or more!) above the size of their ribcage. I think, though, that an equal number of people are probably comfortable in a bands 2 inches *smaller* too. For example, I'm most comfortable in a band that stretches to about a half-inch smaller than my tape measure reading. I've tried wearing sister sizes in larger bands, but they just don't offer support for me and will chafe from moving around and leave bright red marks, and if I try going up in band and cup, I look like I'm not wearing a bra at all. I do think- and this is what I see as the crux of your post- that you can get so devoted to +0 that you can make others feel like wearing anything above an inch bigger or so is heresy, which isn't necessarily the case. So while I'd respectfully disagree about *starting* with an added 2 inches, if the 30 band bra coupled with the correct cup size doesn't actually fit and/or isn't comfortable for the woman with the 30 inch ribcage, we should be assuring her that it's OK to wear a larger band size and not forcing her into 30s or smaller "because it's what +0 says."

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    1. Agreed. I measure at 38" underbust and I far prefer the feel and support of 36" bands (typically). When trying on new bras, since I'm a bit squishy around my ribcage, I do begin with a +0 measurement and see how that feels and go from there. I have bought 3 different, beautiful, slightly expensive bras in +0 and they've all ended up being uncomfortably unsupportive after an hour or two of wear. I find that many -2 bands are more comfortable and stay that way throughout a day of wear without being too small or leaving any marks.

      So, basically, I agree with everyone I think? Well. I guess I really believe that +0 is the best starting point, and for my thinner (less squishy) friends I will pass on the +2 tip while for my squishier friends, I will still recommend trying -2...

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    2. I am agreed. The problem is seeing it as a must rather than a starting point. And "compression" does not always mean one is unable to breathe or has pain. I've got chub on my ribs and it compresses without any constriction on my movement or comfort.

      "Life is way too short to wear a bra that compresses your body." In my case it's too short to wear one that doesn't!

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    3. Yeah, I'm the same - my underbust measurement is larger than the actual band size that provides proper lasting support while still allowing me to breathe.

      Look, no matter what the measurements are, if your band is so stretched out just to fit around you that you can't comfortably expand your chest to take a nice deep breath? That's not going to be a band that works for you. The problem is, if you've been in badly fitted too-large bands for years, a band that is properly snug (I describe it as feeling like a comfortable hug) can actually feel pretty tight and claustrophobic. So I think that's part of why there's a lot of assurance going around that yes, really, you can be in THAT SMALL of a band size.

      I'm also confused by the claim that the band doesn't need to be properly fit to be supportive. There are only two things holding up a bra - the band and the straps. If your band is too loose then you're limiting or removing entirely the amount of support it can provide, so even if you're wearing properly sized cups, the only place all that boob-weight has to go is onto your shoulders via the straps. For most women, that isn't going to be very comfortable.

      Basically what you want is a band that has to stretch to fit, but NOT to the full extent of the stretch present in the band/elastic. That way you still have some stretchiness left in the band to allow for your rib cage to change size/shape as you move around, breathe, etc. but because it's stretched a bit to begin with, it has some way to provide support because it's hugging your body and not just sitting there. What size band will actually DO that on any given body depends a lot on the brand of the bra, the construction of the band, the shape of the individual's rib cage, and the 'squishiness' of the tissue where the band sits - apparently what I have in that area is quite happy to be squished, so it just squishes out of the way and I need to pick a band size that accounts for that.

      I think, personally, that life is way too short to wear a bra that isn't comfortably supportive. The numbers aren't magic, here - learn to look for signs that a bra doesn't fit like the way the cups sit, the band moving around on you a lot, etc. Ignore the tag unless you need to know what size it is so you can order another one.

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  3. I wear +2 in Panache and +0 in Freya. I think of +2 as my default and Freya as the exception but I could be wrong. When I wore +0 in Panache I think it tried to work its way *between* my ribs. At any rate my underbust measurement went down an inch, my lower ribs were protruding quite unattractively and I sometimes had to undo it even though I was still out in public. No thanks.

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  4. I really liked this post. I absolutely agree that we shouldn't seek excessive tightness, and that adding inches has its place. I like adding +1-2 depending on the bra to get my preferred fit. Since trying bands that are actually equal to my ribcage measurement from Ewa Michalak, I definitely don't think bands that tight are comfortable (oh, about their calculator. I think it put me at something like a 30C. Absolutely no chance that would work, considering I fit 28Gs in their PLs... so I definitely have beef with their calculator).

    Here's what I find REALLY confusing about measurements. My friend measured me as tightly as she could and got me down to 23.4 inches or something. When I measure myself, it's usually something like 25.5-26 inches. And I find bands that stretch to 27 inches the most comfortable...

    That's so many DIFFERENT NUMBERS. How does one know how tightly to measure oneself? I struggled a lot with these complexities when I wrote my fit guide. I'm glad you wrote this post though. I think I want to update my fit guide to be more clear about how okay it is to add inches if that's how you feel comfortable. I do wonder about the cases where some women find subtracting inches to be comfortable though? I'd like to hear from them, because I can't imagine every women who has ever used the +0 method, or subtracted inches from their measurement is insanely uncomfortable.

    Thanks for the great read!

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    1. I think that the +0 method is going to work best on squishier women (same with subtracting inches). I wear a 28 band, which is +0 (or even -.5"!), but there are a couple things to take into account here...

      1. I am at the higher end of a healthy weight. My ribcage measurement squished really tightly can get down to 25.5", my very loose measurement could be 29.5".

      2. A lot of manufacturer's bands are not true to size (I'm mostly referencing Freya here, in my experience, but I'm sure there are others).

      3. I was originally a 30 band but they started riding up all the time.

      So I do sort of subtract inches, or at the very least wear +0 consistently, because those really are the most comfortable to me, and I've experienced 30 bands before and it just doesn't work for me.

      To find more women who subtract inches, you should go over to www.reddit.com/r/abrathatfits. There are a decent number of plus sized women there who are told to subtract inches to get the best fit (and it's usually due to the same squish factor that I have to deal with).

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    2. I find an important part of whether one adds, subtracts, or doesn't deviate from the underbust measurement is the composition of said underbust! I'm squishy around my ribcage- a tight measurement is 31". I wear a 30 band in most Freya bras and a 32 band in most others, and I find it comfortable. However, if I had a mostly bony ribcage I imagine I'd wear a bigger band size because tight around flesh is different from tight around bone!

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  5. I think it's important to remember that the measurements are just a starting point - so try it, and adjust (either bigger or smaller) depending on how it feels. I don't know that I can get behind adding +2, but I'm also coming at this as a bordering-on-plus size lady, and I've got a lot of, shall we say, "squish" to my torso. My underbust measures at 33", and I have a few 34 bands that feel great, and one that feels too large. I also have a couple 32 bands that I wear with an extender to get an extra column of hooks. Couple that with the fact that I am a 34HH and have large, heavy breasts, and I just cannot go with a larger band. I actually have a few 36GGs that used to fit, and I can only wear them around the house at this point - there is just not enough support there.

    I know a lot of larger ladies (in terms of underbust) choose to go down a couple inches from their actual measurement in order to get adequate support, and it's important to remember with larger bands you tend to have more of the band fabric making up the bra, as opposed to the cup, so you can get more stretch per more than a comparable size in a 28 or 30 band. We also have to deal with more compressible tissue around our ribcage, and the bra band often needs to be tighter in order to compress that tissue and sit on our underbust without moving around. I think that is something that women in smaller bandsizes and with less squish don't need to take into account.

    I am still learning and still working on finding my perfect fit, so this is just based on my experience. I'd love to hear what some of the more knowledgeable larger-band-sized ladies have to say about this as well!

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  6. Honestly, I think the biggest problem is that no one system works for everyone. My underbust is 29.5", and even 30s with will fitting cups rode up in back for me (Freya and Panache were equally horrible, EMs didn't do it as long as I hooked them in the tightest hooks). So I take a 28 in everything except Fayreform, where I'm sadly now sized out of the cups. My Mum has a 35" underbust, but is most comfortable and supported in 36-38s, depending on the brand. Then again, I have larger, more dense breast tissue than she does - I put more downward pressure on bra cups, and I suspect my underbust is going to shrink because I have some definite tissue migration happening.

    I don't think anyone but the bra wearer can have the final say on what fits, no matter how many numbers she gives us, because everyone is different, so no one should be told that they have to do it by X measuring method. So -2, +0, +2, all will work for some and not for others. But I agree that +4 vs +0 alienates a lot of women for whom neither is correct.

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  7. Interesting. Though I would say it's always dangerous to claim any fit-technique as not just a starting point.
    I agree that most women with small band sizes don't need to round down - I've seen some who advice 27" women to have 26band bras made from Ewa Michalak, and I wouldn't advice that myself - most lean women will experience discomfort on their ribs with tight bands.

    I think for many many women +0 or even -1 IS ideal though. Very large bands stretch more than just a few inches (simple math, if it stretches 10%, a 28 band will stretch less than 3", but a 50band will stretch 5", thus making a smaller band size a good idea), and if they on top of that have a very heavy bust, they likely need a 48band, even if measuring 49"-50".

    Another challenge is how tight to measure. If I measure tight, I get 31", but I wear mostly 34bands, only occasionally would I consider a 32. So for my tight measurement +2 seems right. But, the way most women are measured in a store for example, the measurement is not quite snug - I'm often measured as 34"-35" by fitters, in which case I wouldn't advice adding inches.

    Adding on top of that the inconsitancy of brands bands, it is incredible difficult to make a golden rule of what the number should read. I suppose the conclusion is as always, it about the fit, not the label.

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    1. This reminds me that I think you need to take into consideration how you care for your bras, also. I'm bad. My everyday bras go into the washing machine rather than getting hand washed, and that does wear on the elastic. So for everyday I'm more likely to buy a band that's a touch too tight in the store and wear it with an extender for the first couple of uses, because I *know* that the way I handle it means that it'll stretch out more and if I buy the next size up in the band it ends up stretching to the point where it doesn't support. For those bras that I buy as more special occasion things (you know, with pretty lace and whatever) that I am willing to hand wash, I tend to go with a band that fits properly snug but not too tight in the store, because how I'm going to handle it won't kill the elastic so much. (Plus, they get worn less, which also helps keep the elastic in optimum condition. My everyday bras get worn, well, quite often. :) )

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  8. As a +2 band size wearer - ribcage/underbust 26, bra 28FF - I agree with most of your post. I certainly couldn't wear a smaller band in many bras. I think some of this is down to the amount of squishiness around my ribs, ie for me not much around the back and sides where the stretchy part of the band lies. A band which compressed those areas would be uncomfortable.
    However, I have to disagree when you say that 'band size is NOT the most important thing about a bra'. I spent most of my life wearing 32 bands, when they were the smallest available, and then 30 bands when they appeared, before finally getting to 28s when they arrived on the UK market. Since I have been within a few pounds of the same weight throughout, we can assume that I've been wearing too big bands for most of my life. And that would explain why bras didn't give me any support.
    I could see that they just didn't stop the jiggling; in fact they sometimes made it more obvious. They didn't give me a good shape; constantly fighting band riding up, etc. I thought it must be me, since no-one else seemed to have such problems. It felt like a bra was an item of clothing you had to wear but didn't actually do anything. Most of the time I was probably wearing a cup size or maybe 2 too small, but this was much less of a problem for me than the fact that with such large bands, the bra was just not anchored anywhere.
    On the other hand, when I see women out and about I think it's fair to say that too-small-cups are the most obvious problem.

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  9. As a +2 band size wearer - ribcage/underbust 26, bra 28FF - I agree with most of your post. I certainly couldn't wear a smaller band in many bras. I think some of this is down to the amount of squishiness around my ribs, ie for me not much around the back and sides where the stretchy part of the band lies. A band which compressed those areas would be uncomfortable.
    However, I have to disagree when you say that 'band size is NOT the most important thing about a bra'. I spent most of my life wearing 32 bands, when they were the smallest available, and then 30 bands when they appeared, before finally getting to 28s when they arrived on the UK market. Since I have been within a few pounds of the same weight throughout, we can assume that I've been wearing too big bands for most of my life. And that would explain why bras didn't give me any support.
    I could see that they just didn't stop the jiggling; in fact they sometimes made it more obvious. They didn't give me a good shape; constantly fighting band riding up, etc. I thought it must be me, since no-one else seemed to have such problems. It felt like a bra was an item of clothing you had to wear but didn't actually do anything. Most of the time I was probably wearing a cup size or maybe 2 too small, but this was much less of a problem for me than the fact that with such large bands, the bra was just not anchored anywhere.
    On the other hand, when I see women out and about I think it's fair to say that too-small-cups are the most obvious problem.

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  10. I absolutly love this post! I'm a bra fitter myself and work in a shop for larger cups sizes in Germany and can just agree with the +0 method to be a starting point. Every brand has its on fitting problems and especially Freya and Curvy Kate are quite annoying. I see alot of bras with brocken/ripped bands because the girls bought them to tight. And because of that the bras don't last as long as they could!And unfortunately I do have to say that I don't like the british companys besides their designs- fitting-wise( is that actually a word ?)or because of handling of the materials there are a lot of other brands who I prefere (Ulla, Miss Mandalay, Krisline...usw.) Bras should be comfortable and of course fit! Too tight bands are not a sign of a good fit !!
    Thank you for your post maybe a couple of girls will think about this in the future.

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  11. While I think you should certainly wear the band that you feel most comfortable with, I have to respectfully disagree with you that 2+ in the best starting point. I've gone through a lot of it in my post All About Band Sizes: http://www.bralessinbrasil.com/2013/03/all-about-band-sizes.html

    The examples that you give are yourself (on the thin size) and your sister (I'm guessing thin if she's built like you?). Have you also fit women who have had previous pregnancies? Lost large amounts of weight? Are plus-sized? The squishiness of the back plays a large roll. There's a big difference in women who are have always been thin and have bony ribcages vs. women with extra padding, loose skin, or a generally squishier ribcages.

    I'd also point out (as I did in that post) that if you have a rounded stomach or have an A shape underbust (your underbust is larger on bottom than on top). You might very well have a hard time getting a tight enough measurement for your underbust. For instance, due to pregnancy my underbust measures 33". But I feel most comfortable in 32 bands and I can actually easily pull them away quite a ways from my body. I can even wear 30 bands still but don't find them nearly as comfortable so I choose to wear them with extenders. I just can't get an accurate underbust measure due to how high I'm carrying and the measuring tape is always at an angle. Even pre-pregnancy with a rounded stomach (A shape) and a squishy back due to pregnancy/major weight loss I always found the need to size down 1- if I was between band sizes. Yet even then I could easily stick an entire hand and then some behind my bra bands.

    So *maybe* for women with bony ribcages 2+ is a more accurate starting place, but if we used that recommendation, what ramifications would it have? Companies would be continue to be extremely hesitant to offer 28 bands (and there are definitely women out there who need them!). They also wouldn't look into innovations that women in the very high end of the cup size range need (talking about K+ women here) to get enough support such as longline bras, better fabrics etc.

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  12. If I add two inches it is just absolutely no good at all, and I'm only small in the chest department, but I don't find the 'no weight pulling down at the front' thing to be any help at all. I'm a 28E, which ain't big, but if I add inches, it doesn't stay in place, and the front AND back ride up, so that the bottom of my breasts is probably not in the bra, and there is lots of gapping at the top. I basically end up wearing the bra OVER my boobs, because they're so small that there's nothing stopping the bra from climbing up, really. So I have to stay absolutely true to 0+ or there's no point wearing a bra. Looseness/tightness of straps doesn't make a difference either, it still rides up.

    www.gleepface.com

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  13. I'm a smaller person (although larger than I used to be) and have struggled to find the 'right' size bra after motherhood. Currently, I'm wearing a 30G (Freya), a 32F (Panache) and a 32FF (Cleo). I could have gone down in the band on the Panache because it is stretchier, but I couldn't get the cups to fit right in a 32 in Freya. I couldn't imagine wearing a 30 in the Cleo - it is already quite snug! All of that to say, I am happy with the fit and support of my bras, and I don't understand this collective need for a RULE to follow. I would like to know that a US size 6 is a US size 6 everywhere, but that just isn't so and isn't likely to be so anytime soon. Until we start requiring bra manufacturers to standardize the size of their bras, then I don't see the point of arguing about what size the humans are. On the other hand, when I want to complain to my friends about how difficult it is to find clothes that fit, I say '30G' because it's impressive and nicely refutes that 'but you don't even look that big!'

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  14. I'm a smaller person (although larger than I used to be) and have struggled to find the 'right' size bra after motherhood. Currently, I'm wearing a 30G (Freya), a 32F (Panache) and a 32FF (Cleo). I could have gone down in the band on the Panache because it is stretchier, but I couldn't get the cups to fit right in a 32 in Freya. I couldn't imagine wearing a 30 in the Cleo - it is already quite snug! All of that to say, I am happy with the fit and support of my bras, and I don't understand this collective need for a RULE to follow. I would like to know that a US size 6 is a US size 6 everywhere, but that just isn't so and isn't likely to be so anytime soon. Until we start requiring bra manufacturers to standardize the size of their bras, then I don't see the point of arguing about what size the humans are. On the other hand, when I want to complain to my friends about how difficult it is to find clothes that fit, I say '30G' because it's impressive and nicely refutes that 'but you don't even look that big!'

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  15. I think you make a valid point, especially for more slender women and those near the bottom range of band sizes, but I think you may be generalizing a bit too much from your experience, and forgetting about the larger end of the spectrum. For larger women with lots of padding and who are squishier, it's quite common not just to need to go +0, but often even to subtract from the underbust measurement. The bigger your band, the more material there is to stretch, and on top of that squishy bodies are going to need tightness to get a solid base to grip against.

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  16. I measure between a 33 and 34 underbust due to fluctuating weight and I find 34 bands to be the best for me. I've tried 36 bands and they always ride up and offer no support. And I have to put them on the tightest hook. I do agree that band tightness has gone a little overboard but I do like +0 as a starting point. Then it really depends on the brand if you go up or down. I agree that heavier boobs may need a tighter a band to support them. That is the case for me. +0 is a great place to start but it is important to not be scared if you need to add inches or take away. I can even wear some 32s because certain brands have bigger stretchy bands. I think it's important for women to know (especially in the DD+ market) that they will have different sizes in their bra wardrobe just like you do in your clothes.

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  17. I don't think you'll find anyone in the lingerie community that disagrees that +2" is a better rule for you, but I don't think it should be a starting point at all. As someone else said above, some women have to subtract inches, others need to add... It all evens out. If you start at +0, you can easily tell which direction the women is going to need to go in.

    It's widely known that thinner women or more muscular women with less padding on their rib cages often need to add inches to get a comfortable band fit, and that's totally fine and perfect for them. I would never FORCE someone into their smaller band size. Other women (and I'd wager to say most women nowadays, considering how much of our country is overweight) will be a bit squishier on their rib cage and will find that the bigger band doesn't hold place on them well.

    The squishiness factor isn't something you find just in plus sized or overweight women, either. I'm a rather healthy weight (around 5'3"-5'4", 135 lbs), but I still have a squishiness factor. My loose underbust measurement is around 29.5", comfortably tight 28.5", and VERY tight is 25.5"... that's a 4" difference in squishness. So if I go to a 30 band size, it will move around and ride up, but a 28 band stays in place but isn't uncomfortable. And I think that most women do have a squishiness factor, which is why I'd generally say +0 is the way to start.

    I think that the real problem isn't with +0, it's with adopting +0 as a dogma. +0 is a great place to start, but we shouldn't be so adamant about it as to force other women into it when it isn't right for their bodies. I've always tried to advocate that it's most important for a woman to wear what she finds most comfortable - otherwise, what's the point in wearing a "well fitted" bra? - even when others may be saying "+0 or die!!". (And I HAVE seen women telling another woman things along those lines! Though they seem to have chilled out a bit about it lately thankfully haha.)

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  18. I definitely agree with you in everything else, but I don't see why +2 should be a starting point rather than +0. Because there are probably as much women who need to go down in band sizes because of squishy underbust tissue.

    I measure 41 very tightly and I definitely do better with 40 bands than 42. Sometimes I like the feel of 42's (you know, the comfort factor when I feel sensitive) but after a few weeks they start to ride up and I need to move to the second hook. The bra doesn't last very long that way!

    And this isn't just a overweight issue, either, because I remember from June Braless in Brasil and By Babys rules mention that they have squishy tissue post partum, too.

    So all in all, I feel like +0 is a fairer and more accurate starting point, but I feel like there should always be a mention that the band size can vary depending on several things.

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  19. It totally depends on the bra for me. I can comfortably wear a bra sized up to an inch smaller than my underbust if it's stretchy. When I measured around 34.5, a 34 banded Masquerade was too tight and I couldn't even fasten it. However, I was quite comfortably wearing 34 band Freya and Fantasie. Now I measure 33 and I suspect I could go down to a 32 band in those brands, given they're fastened on the tightest hook how and pull way out. If I measure between sizes especially, I size down.

    However, I can pull the tape to a 32. I am squishy and a size 14. I'm not sure I'd get down below a true 32 if I lost all the weight I'm working on. Maaaaybe a 30, but not below.

    I would say there's a continuum. If you're at the smaller end, you might need to +2. If you're measuring above a 32 I'd think you'd be more apt to +0 or even subtract. I still think it has to do with body structure and how much padding you have. Bands stretch more the larger they get, which has something to do with this too.

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  20. I commented on /r/abrathatfits on reddit about this idea and was asked to repost here, so off with the reposting:

    ---

    I think whether this works for you is going to depend A LOT on your build and on your breast shape.

    It seems that a lot of slim women find +0 band sizing uncomfortable, which makes sense because they probably don't have a whole ton of padding on their ribs. Having a tight band digging right into your ribs must really suck. Plus, there's just less stretch in a smaller band. The more material you have to work with, the more play you get.

    I, however, am a rather heavy lady. I've got like 3 inches of difference between a measuring tape laying firmly against my skin without digging in and a measuring tape pulled as tight as possible. And since a 36 or 38 band is often stretchier than a 30 or 32 band just because there's more fabric to work with, there's more wiggle room in the band as well. Even though my tight measurement is 37" I find I fit well in a lot of 36 bands. In some bras a 38 is a bit loose, and a 40 band would just be too large altogether.
    I also get a lot of benefit from wearing a 36D instead of a 38C. 36D is a much easier size to find -- basically everybody makes it. Also, for how shallow my breasts are I have a fairly narrow root, so I find the wires on a 36 band suit me better. Often 38C is a bit wide on me, and it also tends to be shallower on the bottom -- I've had better luck getting the wire width to depth ratio I need with a 36D. I also get a great fit from a few brands that don't make 38 bands in most or any styles, like Huit and Josie.
    It's notable that even in a size that's quite tight for my measurements, I am not deforming the wires on my bras or causing myself any discomfort. My ribs are well-padded, so even a very firm band doesn't really dig me unless it's rolling up and digging into one spot.

    I think rather than sticking strictly to a +0 or +2 measurement, what we need to be doing is evaluating what works best for us individually. I figured out what sizes work for me by trying on like a hundred bras. I actually measure as a 38D, and initially I was trying to wear that size and not able to figure out why nothing was working. I went down to a 38C because that was what fit me, and then tried a 36D when I realized some of my 38 bands had gotten very loose very fast. What size fits me best depends entirely on the bra.

    Unfortunately that's not a lot of help to people just starting out, because no one wants to hear "Well, measure yourself this way and then try on 30-50 bras and see how it shakes out." That's time-consuming and expensive. But I think that's just how it's going to work if you happen to not have the precise breast shape bra companies are catering to.

    tl;dr it's complicated and stellanora talks too much.

    ---

    It's also worth pointing out that because I have a small, shallow bust, I've yet to have a bra ride up. My way-too-big Natori 38 band that fits like a 40 band does not ride up. Actual 40 bands do not ride up. They grab onto my fatty, fatty sides and stay put, because my breasts just don't have the mass to pull them down and it's easy to grab onto a fatty side. ;)

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  21. Great read.

    I use around +0 (-1 for Freya, +1 most other brands/styles) myself but that's because I find myself squishy and don't want to be on the tightest hook right away!

    I do believe that the composition of what makes our underbust measurement is important. It it's almost all bone, then adding inches for comfort makes sense. If it's easily compressible, it's less likely one wants to add inches.

    I do agree that most of us don't want to go beyond a certain cup size...usually for getting sized out! There's a drastic limitation of available styles past G, and an even more restrictive one past H!

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  22. I strongly agree that it should be about comfort and not a number of inches. I usually prefer 32 bands and my underbust is 29.5. But I do think that it could be a good idea to start from the tightest you can fasten and the biggest cup you can possibly think of. From what I've read about bra fit I have strong impression that on the larger band sizes it's not uncommon to use +0 or even -2, but if it's smaller band sizes and bony ribcages then it's most likely +2 (or even +4 if we talking about lightweight and narrow root + closely set breasts).
    So may be it's a good idea to use different starting points depending on band size and breasts shape/size?

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  23. This is a good article. I think +0 and +2 can work equally well depending on the person. But some in the bra fitting community are really quick to suggest smaller and smaller bands sizes even smaller breasts sizes where I feel like it'd be a bit excessive.

    +0 works better for me. I find when I go up 2 inches the bra band doesn't necessarily ride up, but it will shift around and I have to continually adjust it.

    I think people really just have to be open to either one only being a starting point and adjusting from there. Comfort is more important than numbers or letters.

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  24. I'm pretty sure it immensely depends on the brand. Every bra is different and some bands are stretchier than others, some run large or small, etc. I think +0 is a good starting point, and then obviously you would try on bras around your rib size range to see what works. There is no magic bra rule that will tell you "this is your bra size and that's that," especially when I can wear 3 different sizes in different brands and have them all fit the same.

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  25. It really depends what bra you're trying on. Some bands run small, some run large, some have stretchy fabric and some don't. I think +0 is a good starting point, then obviously you would try different band sizes around your rib size to see what works. There's no magic rule to bra-fitting, you have to try them on. Especially when I can wear 3 different bra sizes in different brands and have them all fit the same.

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  26. I agree that the best fit should be the most comfortable on the woman, not what is indicated by a measuring tape - I measure 33 inches, tightly, underbust, but find a 30 band fits best in most bras, and 32 is ok but stretches out quickly. I also have plenty of squishy skin and fat around my ribcage, so that contributes to my needed a smaller band size than my measurements. I think a lot of women with squish end up needing firmer bands because all the fat gets compressed by the band and if it's not tight enough it's just sitting on skin, not the ribcage itself, and will move around and ride up. If I added 2 inches I'd be in a 34 or a 36 band, with cups that were much too small and a band that didn't do anything to support me. Basically: it really depends on the body

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  27. I totally agree that bra size should be not about rules, but about comfort, but I'm not really in +2 (despite wearing mostly 32" bands having 29.5" underbust).
    From what I've read about bra fit I have strong impression that on the larger side of the band range +0 and -2 usually works the best and when we are talking about smaller band sizes, especially when combined with more lightweight and more "centered" breasts then it's more like +2 or even +4.
    So I think that may be it's a good idea to forget about universal starting point and take band size, breast shape/size/positioning into consideration. It's a little more complicated, but when you are placing your first orders online for bra sizes that is totally unavailable locally or you are operating bra boutique it's totally worth it IMHO.

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    Replies
    1. It is really such an individualized thing, like clothing of any sort. Because I'm a pretty small person, I have people assume that I need to add inches to be comfortable, which isn't the case at all! It's not even because of a squishy ribcage, but because I have very dense and heavy breasts. I need the support that a smaller band offers. I do get annoyed about marks on the skin, but I don't feel them, and they aren't bright red and itchy and leaving me with dented sore shoulders like if I wear larger bands (and my skin gets practically unfading marks from socks!). It would be awesome if someone could invent a scanner that scanned your body while standing and leaning over and said "X bra will work for you!" Unfortunately we probably do need at least a starting point to begin the process of finding bras ourselves. But we shouldn't forget that starting points aren't die hard rules.

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    2. Yeah... lightweight and heavy/dense breasts call for very different things in bras, brandwise too.
      I agree that we do need some starting point, it just bugs me that all online calculators don't even try to take into account other things than measurements. People sometimes take other factors into account, but not always and if we are talking not about fitting in the bra boutique, but about starting point for ordering online it's really important to be as close as possible, because returns are money and time consuming.

      Delete
    3. Well I wrote brandwise I meant bandwise ), but branwise too )

      Delete
  28. I really like your blog and don't think you're being rude and disrespectful to the full bust community! However I'm going to have to disagree about + 2 fitting. I measure 27" around about, and 39" round the bust and I wear a 28J/26JJ. Anything bigger than that and I am in pain so bad it puts me off what I'm doing and interferes with my life. That sounds like I'm exaggerating but I'm not. It is that bad.

    I've tried 30s in cupsizes from G to JJ. They are vile to wear. They ride up my back and cause chaffing and the wires stab me. I get dents in my shoulder and can't get the straps short enough so they fall down my arms. I get back pain and a really heavy feeling on my chest and can't wait to take the damn thing off. It feels like a torture device. I get this with some 28s as well, and usually fasten 28s on the tightest hook, meaning a smaller band would be better. 28s also ride up a bit.

    It might be worth noting I have a really short torso and close together breasts. I also have a really bony rib. This means that anything that has wide long wires is uncomfortable. Im thinking the reason I find bigger bands so uncomfortable is that the wires are wider causing this to be worse.

    I disagree about the red marks. George did a post on FullerFigure FullerBust about it that I agree with, unless they are hurting there is nothing wrong with red marks. I get red marks from pants even though they fit. And socks or tights. So I don't think red marks are a problem.

    If I was told to + 2 to my bra measurement I would still be really really uncomfortable. As uncomfortable as I was in my old 32FFs. Probably more so because the smaller cup meant the wires werent stabbing me so painfully.

    I do think + 0 is the best starting point. There will be people who suit more or less inches, or people like me in between bands. But it's a good base, because you can try on a kind of unbiased band size and go from there.

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    Replies
    1. I disagree about red marks too! I have the world's most easily-marked skin and I get red marks from any and everything. I can't scratch an itch without welts appearing. It does not mean that they hurt or are damaging me.

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    2. Another agreement! Marks are normal. The marks to worry about are the ones that don't easily fade after taking the clothing off. If the marks go away within 15 minutes or so, it's fine. Permanent marks are the issue.

      I will say I have a shadow scar from a band rubbing one side of my chest when I gained some weight but still fit in my bras but it's fading.

      Delete
  29. I really like your blog and don't think you're being rude and disrespectful to the full bust community! However I'm going to have to disagree about + 2 fitting. I measure 27" around about, and 39" round the bust and I wear a 28J/26JJ. Anything bigger than that and I am in pain so bad it puts me off what I'm doing and interferes with my life. That sounds like I'm exaggerating but I'm not. It is that bad.

    I've tried 30s in cupsizes from G to JJ. They are vile to wear. They ride up my back and cause chaffing and the wires stab me. I get dents in my shoulder and can't get the straps short enough so they fall down my arms. I get back pain and a really heavy feeling on my chest and can't wait to take the damn thing off. It feels like a torture device. I get this with some 28s as well, and usually fasten 28s on the tightest hook, meaning a smaller band would be better. 28s also ride up a bit.

    It might be worth noting I have a really short torso and close together breasts. I also have a really bony rib. This means that anything that has wide long wires is uncomfortable. Im thinking the reason I find bigger bands so uncomfortable is that the wires are wider causing this to be worse.

    I disagree about the red marks. George did a post on FullerFigure FullerBust about it that I agree with, unless they are hurting there is nothing wrong with red marks. I get red marks from pants even though they fit. And socks or tights. So I don't think red marks are a problem.

    If I was told to + 2 to my bra measurement I would still be really really uncomfortable. As uncomfortable as I was in my old 32FFs. Probably more so because the smaller cup meant the wires werent stabbing me so painfully.

    I do think + 0 is the best starting point. There will be people who suit more or less inches, or people like me in between bands. But it's a good base, because you can try on a kind of unbiased band size and go from there.

    ReplyDelete
  30. I really like your blog and don't think you're being rude and disrespectful to the full bust community! However I'm going to have to disagree about + 2 fitting. I measure 27" around about, and 39" round the bust and I wear a 28J/26JJ. Anything bigger than that and I am in pain so bad it puts me off what I'm doing and interferes with my life. That sounds like I'm exaggerating but I'm not. It is that bad.

    I've tried 30s in cupsizes from G to JJ. They are vile to wear. They ride up my back and cause chaffing and the wires stab me. I get dents in my shoulder and can't get the straps short enough so they fall down my arms. I get back pain and a really heavy feeling on my chest and can't wait to take the damn thing off. It feels like a torture device. I get this with some 28s as well, and usually fasten 28s on the tightest hook, meaning a smaller band would be better. 28s also ride up a bit.

    It might be worth noting I have a really short torso and close together breasts. I also have a really bony rib. This means that anything that has wide long wires is uncomfortable. Im thinking the reason I find bigger bands so uncomfortable is that the wires are wider causing this to be worse.

    I disagree about the red marks. George did a post on FullerFigure FullerBust about it that I agree with, unless they are hurting there is nothing wrong with red marks. I get red marks from pants even though they fit. And socks or tights. So I don't think red marks are a problem.

    If I was told to + 2 to my bra measurement I would still be really really uncomfortable. As uncomfortable as I was in my old 32FFs. Probably more so because the smaller cup meant the wires werent stabbing me so painfully.

    I do think + 0 is the best starting point. There will be people who suit more or less inches, or people like me in between bands. But it's a good base, because you can try on a kind of unbiased band size and go from there.

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  31. I think I agree with the direction you're going with this, but I also think it needs to be fleshed out more before I totally throw my lot in with you. As a disclaimer, I'm relatively new to the bra fitting world and this is all just conjecture on my part, though I'd love to get some data and see if I'm headed down the right path.

    I definitely agree that you don't want to be maxing out your band's length. I would say I think most people could agree on that but I really have no idea what most people think about these things, so I'm just gonna leave that where it is for the time being. You didn't really specify where you think your measurements should be between the unstretched and stretched measurements, but before I return to that I wanted to clarify something that's been driving me crazy forever. When you say you measure _____ around, are you talking about your tightest measurement? I'm never really sure which measurement people are using, or which I should provide when people ask me. This whole argument sort of hinges on you using your tightest (or close to your tightest) measurement, so if you're not, you can disregard the rest of this.

    My issue with using your tightest possible measurement is that, on a normal basis, your body is never in that configuration. I never exhale completely, and if I did I certainly wouldn't be holding that for very long. My tightest measurement is somewhere between 27.5" and 28", so pretty close to yours. When I take a normal breath, like I might when I'm not paying attention to my breathing, my ribcage expands to about 29.5". That's an increase of 1.5" or a little more, nearly your +2. I wear a 30 band quite comfortably, so your idea works for me as well.

    More specifically than saying your measurements should fall somewhere between the unstretched and maximum lengths of the band, I think it's important for your natural inhaled circumference to be somewhere close to the higher end of the band's length range. I think it's likely that, the heavier your breasts are, the closer you would want to be to the maximum length, because you need more force to support heavier breasts, and elastic force is a function of displacement, or how far you stretch it.

    I don't know if 2" is how much most people expand when they breathe, but that doesn't seem unreasonable.

    To take that a little further, it's not unusual for women who are larger to have somewhat proportionately heavier breasts (individual body variations aside). On top of that they have a little more cushioning around the ribcage which could potentially alleviate the discomfort someone smaller might feel under too much pressure from a tight band. If you add a heavier load to support and an increased ability to tolerate the greater force exerted, it could explain why they might prefer their bands on the tighter side.

    Again, all just conjecture, but what do you think? If it's not to accommodate for increased ribcage size while breathing, why do you think +2 works best for most people?

    Sorry this is so long!

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  32. I totally agree with you, and anytime anyone insists the +0 is the way to go, I think about the post where you mentioned feeling a little naughty/rebellious when you realized you could wear a 30 even if your measurements are 28. I usually wear a 32, even though my measurement is 30.5, and I almost never have band issues.

    I have heard, though, that many women with larger underbust measurements, or who are a little squishier, like to use +0 or even -2 because they compress more easily than some.

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  33. This is a great post, and I think applies well to anyone without the squishiness around their ribs that a person like I have. I'm slightly squishy and I actually am most comfortable in a -2inch band. I understand that's personal preference, but that's why I think continuing to recommend +0 as a starting point is a little more helpful than recommending +2 as a starting point universally. When I've tried on most of the +0 size bras, they've fit okay enough in the fitting room and it's not until I bring my favorites home and wear them a few times that they become too loose and basically don't feel like they're doing much of anything. My breasts, themselves are not very large, so I don't need a ton of support, however when the band isn't more snug, the bra feels like it just is laying there underneath my shirt as opposed to holding me together.

    Anyhow, it was an informative read that I will pass along to my thinner friends...

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  34. I really appreciate this perspective. I wear a 30 or 32 band, depending on the bra, and my under bust is 30. I tend to promote a very firm (verging on tight) band but I've recently come to realize that women without a lot of fat can suffer under those circumstances. I had a baby 13 yrs ago and, ever since then, my rib cage has been kind of flared. I find a tight band very appealing because it seems to stabilize things. But we're all different. My main concern about suggesting a plus 2 is that many women, who are already wearing too-loose bands, will be that much more inclined to do so. But the point is that people should wear the loosest band they can while still obtaining support. I find it's tighter than plus 2 on many occasions, but I'm hardly the arbiter for everyone!

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  35. I think part of the issue with these different band measurement systems is absolute size of bras and backs versus labeling. It seems that just because a bra is labelled size 30, doesn't necessarily mean it actually measures 30 inches--I know it's close but there is still significant variability. So in theory, what measurement system works depends on the manufacturer. +4 wouldn't be a problem if manufacturers made adequately tight backs then based their sizing system on numbers 4inches larger than the backs they designed for. For example, when low rise jeans first came out, you had to get them a few inches bigger than your waist measurement. Now, they are an equivalent low-waist measurement. I.e. A size 27 jeans are not 27" but based on the estimated low waist of someone with a 27" waist. I think that's why trial and error is better than any single system. Knowing how a bra should fit is more important than what measurement system is "right". Personally I don't care too much what a label says--whether it's a 30 band or a 32 band or size green band or whatever. What I do care about is that there is a wide range of sizes available and that there is consistency--in dreamland across all brands but realistically at least within a brand. I agree with you on too tight bands not being worth it! I'm guessing back shape might have something to do with it too. Based on your photos I think we may have a similar shape and what you describe sounds exactly like what I experience with bands that in theory fit but somehow just squeeze too much.

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  36. I just found this post after trying on my first order from BraStop. I ordered exactly what I measured, and it was so tight I could barely breathe. Those are going straight back and I am going up a band size!

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    Replies
    1. Did the cups fit? If the cups are too small it will make a band feel tighter than it actually is - I usually test band size by putting the bra on either upside down or backwards, so that the band is where it belongs but the cups aren't being interfered with at all by my breasts - that gives you a better idea of how just the band itself is fitting you, which is then a clue as to if you need to change cup sizes.

      (I also try to leave it on like that for a little bit, to make sure it's not just the shock of wearing something tighter that's bothering me. That happens to me sometimes when I realize that all of my current bras are well worn in and need to be replaced, and I try on something new with brand new non-stretched-out elastic. But usually in that situation if it is the right size band, it stops bugging me after a short time.)

      Delete
  37. I really feel we should be avoiding all this rules and camps and embrace the unique qualities of each body and be devoted to finding someting that really works for one wearing the bra.
    I think it's bad to insist on 0+ as well as on 4+ because either rule can't apply to everybody - every body. Women with less padding on their ribcage won't feel comfortable in a tight band because wires on bones cause extra friction, so they are likely to use +2 or even +4 method. On the other hand there are those squishy torsos that sometimes need even a -2 to get decent support if boobs are heavy. Then you have to have in mind the weight of the breast, and size compaired to the ribcage. Bigger boobs on a small frame tend to drag the bra down (and if the cup go down, where is a band to go but up?) so they are more likely to need a tighter band.
    There is also a matter how exactly does one measure. One should take in account supertight exhaled, tight exhaled, loose exhaled and tight fully inhaled measure, and the bandsize should be somewhere in the middle. For some it will mean +0, for others +4. I see you are taking the middle road here, and even though I see people taking tight bands to the extreme and from that perspective your solution seems reasonable, I think it's bad for everyone making just another rule written in stone we can all argue about.
    If you ask me, Bratabaser Milk and Honey got it right when she says "Band shouldn't be as tight as possible, it should be as tight as neccessary to provide support". And this rule is good, because it's relative to the body/boob type.

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  38. You know, it's interesting that the war-on-plus-four turned into a new number based doctrine. In my experience, the numbers and letters on the bra don't actually make a blind bit of difference to how the item really fits. The ONLY way to tell if its a good bra is by trying it on. I have 34Es through to 32FFs, so generally if I try on the same bra in a few sizes, I don't look at what size I'm trying until after I've tried them all on. That way I don't pre-judge, and I go on what feels best, rather than what sounds right. *I* am not a 34F. Some of my bras are *labelled* 34F. I don't honestly know what my underbust measurement is, but I do know when a bra fits me well. In my view, +4, +2, +0, they'll get you no further than you could get with some bra knowledge, and some patience and attention to detail.

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  39. It's eerie you posted this today. Just yesterday I remeasured my underbust to come up with 28" exactly. Then I wore my 28FF Bravissimo Rococo Charm all day. Fourteen hours later, I'd decided to give all my 28 band bras away and stick to my 30F bras. The underwires were jabbing my sides, and not because they were on breast tissue. Bravissimo's half cups have the only underwires I'm 100% sure are wide enough for me. The pain, I decided, was because the band was pulling them against my body too tightly. For a small framed, petite woman, I am not bony. I have a decent about of squish, so a snug band shouldn't cause pain. But compared to my 30F Fauve half cups, my 30FF Cleo Marcie (which I could probably wear in a 32F), and my 30F Fantasie full cup bras, my 28FF bras are too uncomfortable to put up with any longer.

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  40. Hey!

    I can't agree. Anyone with a bit of padding on their ribcages is going to need a bra at +0 or at -2. From your reviews you also seem to have quite firm and self-supporting breasts, I'm sure you're very happy in +2 but it still isn't a logical starting point for nailing your fit for women in general.

    I've discussed fit and measurements with someone that has the same snug underbust measurement as me - 31.5 inches. I wear a 32 band, she wears a 30 band. The difference? Compressibility. My break-the-tape measurement is 30.7 inches, hers is 29.3

    I've sister sized to 34 bands and although they don't ride up I don't feel supported in them. The other woman mentioned can't even size up to +0 without feeling unsupported.

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  41. Really refreshing post. I think +2 is an excellent moderate path to start with. I too wear +0 in Freya & Fantasie & +2 in everything else. There was an interesting discussion on band sizes on Fussy Busty & it was suggested that a 34 should be considered 'plus size'(!!) To me, that's well into letter phobia.

    I think that insisting on +0 also increases the pushback from women who value comfort every bit as much as - & often more than - fit. I know several friends who are in the 34FF/G range but refuse to give up the comfort of padded wires and laser cut bands & so make do with a 36DD from VS. deally brands with great fit would catch up with these comfort features so widely available in cheaper brands for small sizes, but until then, going up a band size, I.e., +2, can make the difference between finding comfort & a great fit, or just smooshing into a bigger band & going for all comfort and crappy fit. And beyond that, I think you make a good point about it working for more women in general.

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  42. I think this post is pretty absolute for something that varies a lot in terms of bra brand and the individual's body. It is just as absolute as the +4 rule, when all the B4J people are pointing out is that the underbust measurement is the right place to start looking at sizes, not an absolute for everyone or every bra.

    People complain that Freya's bands are getting looser and looser; for someone looking for a Freya bra, +2 would effectively leave them in a bra possible two sizes too big in that band.

    In addition to the way different brands of bands stretch, there is the way different bodies compress. When my underbust is 34", I need a 34 band (in most bras), because I am chubby and the chub compresses. A 36 band would not be as supportive, and would also become too loose quickly as it stretched. A thin person has less chub around their ribs, so they compress more and +2 might work for them. It would not be ideal for me. In photos, my bands do "dig in" to my flesh, and some people probably think they look too small or uncomfortable, but they are just compressing my fat and are perfectly comfy (I will not wear a bra that hurts or causes discomfort.)

    As you did point out, heavier breasts need tighter bands than small breasts do. So while +2 works for you, it might not be ideal for someone with heavier boobs. Since a wider band is more supportive than a narrow one, a looser size in a wide band might be just as supportive as the narrow band in a tighter size.

    I do agree that we don't need to wear the absolute tightest band we can get onto our bodies. The underbust measurement should be a starting point: start from there and try things on to find what fits you. Sometimes that is your underbust number and sometimes it isn't. If +2 works for you, then you should wear that! It does not work for me with the body I have right now.

    I also think that the old advice that if you can fit more than two fingers under a band, it is too loose, is stupid. I actually have an entry lined up about it: It is from a time when bras were less stretchy. If I really tried, I could probably slide my whole flat hand under my bra bands, but that is not because they are too loose. If they don't rise up, are supportive and comfortable, they are the right fit. That is why my Freya sports bra is a 36G; I heard that it ran tight so I sized up.

    I generally say "wear the tightest band that you can comfortably wear." If you can't comfortably wear a 28, then obviously a 30 is for you. But that really only holds for your body type and boob type.

    If I find myself between sizes, I prefer to buy the smaller band because I can wear it with an extender until it stretches out. I would rather wear an extender than alter a band.

    Also: I lost 60 pounds a few years ago. I went from a 38G to a 34GG/32h. I once literally dropped a band size in the space of a few weeks. But in talking about this size change, I was accused of having "Reverse Letterphobia" by someone who a)had never seen me or even a photo and b)did not know me or my HAES attitude and belief that a number on a label is not important. She accused me of it *just because* I went down a few band sizes in a short amount of time, without asking any questions about body changes. So I think people should be careful tossing that phrase around at people. I found it insulting to my intelligence.

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  43. I would like to say thank you for this post.

    For reference: I am TINY. My snug underband measurement is 23", and loose is ~24.5". I have a couple of custom made 24s and 26s, and never found them as comfortable as my 28s (though I prefer the strap placements on the 24s). I also find that my sister sizes fit better in the cup because they're a bit shallower than my 'true' size. I've wasted a lot of money and put myself through a lot of pain because I thought I would get used to it.

    Everyone talking about how they're 34 bands and over and need -2 is missing the point. She didn't forget about squishier/larger women, she's saying that the method that works for larger women shouldn't necessarily be applied to all women, any more than fitting that works for us should be applied to larger women. There is no default woman.

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    1. I think that this is mainly why people are saying she forgot about squishy women: "I’m actually a big believer in +2. I believe we should measure our underbust and add 2 inches to get our band size, and frankly, I don't think that's 'just a starting point'."

      She's saying that +2 would work for the wide majority of women, and as I think you can tell from the comments on this post, that probably isn't true. It works PERFECTLY for slimmer women, but the fact is other women aren't that slim and will not need to add inches to their band for comfort. If they do, that's fine, but there is no hard and fast rule that you can claim will work for most women. This post was just taking +0 (which I consider to be a logical starting point, and then you move up or down in band size based on what you need for comfort) and replacing it with +2 as an absolute, and there isn't really any room for absolutes in bra sizing because everyone is different and has different desires.

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    2. A thought-provoking article + same for comments!

      It seems clear that several factors are involved in finding the "right" size, and in determining whether or not one has a good fit. I'd like to emphasize that below a certain volume/weight, you might not be able to apply the diagnostic most put first: the band rising in the back.

      I know that in 40 years (!!) I never once had a properly supportive bra, yet I never had the back band rise out of position. I'm still unsure of what size is best for my 27" ribcage (no fat to speak of, but fairly muscular): after decades of 34C/B, I moved last year to 32D. The first bra I tried in this size seemed just perfect, snug, supportive, meets all the criteria everyone lists. The change has been a terrific improvement. But I suppose I should go down some more? I tried a 28F the other day as an experiment and it also seemed to fit just fine.

      Anyway that all tells me that smaller people may need to use somewhat different criteria to assess (non-)fit; it's possibly also the case that they have more leeway in what will work.


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    3. But why do you consider +0 the starting point? Because it works for larger women? I mean, I see the issue with across the board saying +2, but I don't think that asking slim women to start the same way as larger women works. +0 assumes squishy women as the default, and that's not any better, squishy women just feel it is. Ideally I might say something like 'if the difference between your tightest measurement and loose measurement is large, try -2, if it's a smaller difference try +0, if there's no difference try -2'.

      And especially with those of us on the outskirts, just 'going up or down a band size for comfort' isn't exactly that easy. If nobody makes your band size and when you ask for help nobody even brings up going up, then you end up wasting hundreds of dollars on non-returnable bras.

      Lots of people believe in +0 as a starting point because it worked for them, and she believes in +2 because it worked for her. What's the difference? Both are being prescriptive, sorry.

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    4. Anonymous, I think +0 is a good starting point because as many mention upthread, some women go MINUS two below their underbust measurement. Most women's band size will be within a few inches of their underbust measurement. So "underbust measurement plus or minus a few inches" is a lot simpler than "underbust measurement, plus two, then minus up to four inches." Starting with the underbust measurement is more likely to work for more women than +2 is likely to work for, so yeah, I think the method that will work best in the majority of circumstances is the best. I am not being prescriptive, nor am I saying "This is best because it works for me." I am saying that I see flaws in her argument for +2, which is why I think it is not good general advice. What I do think is that bra fitting is complex and there is far more to it than just the underbust measurement, for sure.

      +0 does not assume squishy women are the default. It assumes that women's bodies vary and that bras vary in fit and stretch. It is just a starting point, not a prescription. In many brands, bras for smaller breasts tend to have looser bands, because as BIH pointed out, they do not need as firm support. So a 32B would have a longer band than a 32H.

      I generally say to start with the underbust and then try things on. Some bras are very stretchy and some are not. The fit and comfort are more important than the number on the label.

      P.S. I've moved my blog for those who care :)

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    5. Because +0 is really more for the "average" woman, larger women will have to go down in band size, smaller women will have to go up. So, when trying to offer advice without having ever seen the woman in person, logically why would you start anywhere other than assuming the woman was average? (Though I agree that it should be more common knowledge that slimmer women need to go up in band size). The last sentence of your first paragraph I can totally get behind, I was simply discussing for/against +0 in my first post.

      I'm on the outskirts as a 28 band who sometimes wants a 26 (in Freya mostly). It sucks to spend money on non-returnable bras (and since I'm currently only buying from Ewa Michalak, I know how that goes too). But I know that on the forums where I help women find a good bra fit, we always ask for multiple measurements of their band size, and regularly suggest that those without much squish go up a band. When you asked for help, did you mention that your band felt uncomfortable? If you're below 28, had you tried on your 28 band sister size before custom ordering? I would always recommend going up a band if they were uncomfortable, and I would NEVER suggest trying to find your correct size by just jumping into custom-order-land.

      I don't think people believe in +0 because it works just for them... it's because it works for the "average" woman. The rules for slimmer and larger women should be well known as well, but choosing a number of inches and claiming that it's more than a starting point ("...I don't think that's 'just a starting point'. I think it's the system that would work best for most people.") is silly (for any number of inches, even +0).

      So a TL;DR for your last question (what's the difference?) is that +2 starts out assuming that the woman is slim. +0 starts out assuming that the woman is of average build or weight. In the US, at least, any given woman is more likely to be overweight or average than slim. Therefore +0 is more likely to fit more women, and is therefore the more logical starting point.

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  44. If we're picking camps I'm firmly in the "Basic underbust measurement with a few inches either way depending on the individual bra" camp.

    My underbust measurement is 30 inches. I have three bras that are 30 bands that fit perfectly, three that are 32 that also fit really well, one 32 that is too loose and one 30 that is too snug. This data may just be my personal experience, but it definitely does not lead me to believe that there is a clear and definite winner in the battle of +0 vs +2.

    Why are we doing this, I thought we were finally making progress with the idea that the tightness of bands varies so much because of fabric and body type and all the other factors involved so there can't be a true universal guide! This seems like a step backwards in a place I did not expect to find one.

    I'm basically not behind the idea that +2 is the system that works best for most people because I'd hesitate to say that there's any measurement system that works best for most people without some kind of survey or study involved.

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  45. Hi, I'm relatively new to all of this but this post only seems to be telling part of the story. If you are advocating +2 as a starting point for the band size what are you using to calculate the starting point for your cup size, as you seem to say the issue is to get that big enough. If you use the +2 band size to calculate a starting point cup size you will be starting with a smaller cup, relatively, than if you start with a calculation based on +0. I know the best way is to just try bras on, which I do. I'm just confused by how you are determining what cup size to start with.

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  46. Great posts and very interesting comments! I would just like to add 2 things:

    1. How much "squidge" a person has around her ribs does not necessarily have to do with size/fitness/age/child births etc. I am not super skinny (a healthy size UK12) or super young (38) and have had two children (and massive pregnancy weight gain both times), but I still have no "squidge" in my underbust measurement. With the Ewa Michalak method of measuring my "tight" and "loose" measurements are practically the same, and always have been. The only way to increase that measure for me seems to be gaining muscle mass = hitting the gym. At times in my life when I have worked out a lot I have seen a cm increase or so :)

    2. Other factors than "squidge" and breast size probably matter too, such as shape of rib cage, length of torso and how high up on the torso the bust is.

    I doubt that it is possible to find a method to suit everyone, but think these discussions/posts are still very important. After all, the goal is that women should be comfortable and well supported in their bras - and that is more important than adhering to any measurement technique or fitting method, right?


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  47. I find that my band size varies greatly on the type of fabric.My ribcage measures 40".
    For one very stretchy not very supportive cotton bra,a 36-38 band often got too loose quickly.I tried on a lace bra with powernet wings,and it was a 38,and almost perfect,though I think I would have preferred a 36" band for that one.Then I tried a cotton push up t-shirt bra from JCPenny,in a 38,and found the band a little too snug.I measured it,not stretched,and it's 32".I have a bra a friend gave me where the cups are too small,but I actually find the band very comfortable and supportive.And it only measures 30"!That's some pretty darn good fabric.
    When I tried on bras at Victoria's Secret,I found their bands to be pretty firm,and too tight for me,I would need to size up for them.They don't carry my cup size anyways,I found out,but that was my experience with them.
    All these differences in the bands makes it hard to order online,and online is pretty much the only place I can find bras I love and that are my size!

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  48. I have to agree with this. I measure around 33 to 33.5 snug and I am usually most comfortable in a 34. For a while I was trying 32's as I AM quit squishy from just having a baby. I was lead to believe, by reading all the +0/super-tight band stuff that I needed a smaller band, especially since I am squishy. Maybe it's because my squish is more loose skin than fat, but the 32's HURT. A bra can't be supportive if it's too uncomfortable to even wear!!

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  49. I have to say, I'm coming around to the "round up" camp as well, at least for smaller ribcages. I've lost a little over 50bs. At a 37" ribcage, a 36 was good. Now that I'm 30" with little squish around my ribcage, I'm finding a lot of my 30s are just painful - I've taken to wearing them with extenders. It's not that I can't fasten them or that I don't want a supportive band, but it's coming at the cost of the gore digging into my breastbone, creating an almost nauseating pain.

    I'll stick to 30s in Cleos and Freyas as they're stretchy, but I just bought a 32in Fantasie yesterday, and I'm going to order the new color of Paanche Jasmine in a 32GG rather than a 30H.

    Here's to picking whatever size is both supportive but not painful!

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  50. I had the hardest time finding bra fitting in Edina, and always get different measurements when I try to do it myself.

    I will definitely take the +2 advice when I get around to trying one on. I have changed bra sizes so often since I got pregnant, and have NO idea where I stand anymore. I used to be a 34C, but that seems to just pup right off anymore.

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  51. I measure 26.5 around the ribcage and own 28 band bras, but they are too large. I'd need a 26 for sure....I don't get discomfort....because although I am small...I am very squishy lol....so +0 works for me. But, I absolutely agree with you that some people would largely benefit from +2! +4 and beyond doesn't seem to be the answer for anyone though!

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  52. well, what if the band rides up from the front when you raise your arms, and the cups do not fill entirely?? That's the problem I have and I am currently wearing a 32A, but after measuring and calculating, turns out my actual size is 26C, but I'm purchasing a 28B.(26" underbust, 29" bust)...which I have yet to receive coz I'm getting them online. Have to find out if the +2 works for me. :)

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  53. i like this theory, i measure 27 but i found a 28 in some brands left painful indents in my skin it was so tight, i couldnt understand why, +0 leaving no room for stretch makes perfect sense

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  54. Well what a good read. Personally I agree with my +6 method. I measure 30 and wear a 36B. I cannot stand to feel the band. If your bra is too tight by 3 in the afternoon (older ladies) you will know what I mean then your band is too tight. I know a 32D would sound better but if it's killing you then surely a 34C or 36B is a much better choice.

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  55. I agree with this entirely. My ribcage is 26 inches with a 32 inch bust. According to some websites, that makes me a 26 DD or E cup! 26 E?? That is ridiculous! I have small boobs proportional to my small body, so I shouldn't have to buy my bras at some specially store online! I don't even need support - they stay up on their own, and I only wear a bra for modesty sake, so why would I go through all that trouble for a tighter band. A 32C fits comfortably, but those are hard to find, and the brand I like doesn't make them, so a 34B with a rixie clip (attachable band tightener) works well for me. At least it's an easy size to find.

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  56. The +4 method is because when you gain weight on your roots underbust no longer equals bandwidth, because the underbust would be taken closer to the waist and not in the usual place of under the shoulder blades.
    If you gain weight, you shouldn't go up a cup size, you should go up a bandsize. But you won't know this if you measure your new underbust at a slimmer more tapered part of the ribcage. Bandsize does not decrease over time unless you lose weight. The amount of inches you should add to underbust depends on how much you think your torso has grown. So for moderate weight gain +2, for more +4, etc...Kate Upton has gone from a 34 - 35D to a 38-39D. Her boobs have gotten bigger, but so has her whole upper torso....if she measured where her roots ended, she would give herself the same band measurement as Gisele Bundchen! They're both originally 34s, but Gisele is still and Kate Upton would have to add 4-5 inchs yo her underbust for her bandwidth.

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  57. If you have an underbust of 34" (like me) your sizing is 38....
    If you buy a bra the same size as your underbust measurement then it is two sizes too small.
    Some bras with the stretchy slingshot type bands will fit, but good quality ones with wide bands that have medium stretch will just cut you in half.

    And each time you go up a band size, you need to go down a cup size for the same size cup.
    Say you wear 12B now and the cups fit.... but the band is a bit tight, you will then be a 14A..... and if you 12B cups fit but the band is too loose... then you go down a band size and up a cup size. 10 C.
    Or if you are like me and fit and muscly and have 16 A but can't find a bra in that size, add a bra extender to a 14B.

    I sell bras so have checked this out far and wide.

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  58. Some years ago I discovers a spot on Oprah Winfrey's website that talked about how band size should be very close to band measurement. If not spot on measurement then only adding 2 inches. Since then I have added 2 to 4 inches, the latter just to get the cups to fit, and I had to start out on the middle to tightest hooks. Normally, in a perfect a world, a new bra should be worn on the 1st hooks.

    The cup system falls apart after a 4 or 5 inch difference. It's all a dance: band, cup, and don't forget nipple placement. The further apart your nipples are the heavier you'll look. Don't wear bras that push you apart too much. Bring your tape measure with you in the dressing room for nipple distance. If your present bra gives you a good shape and the nipples measure 9 inches, and you get a repalcement bra that measures 10 inches apart you will not be happy.

    Good luck, my sisters. I'm planning to go out bra shopping myself in a couple of weeks. Oh, joy. Wish me luck. Even though I have a vast understanding of bra fitting, I still have problems ring a bra. Just keep calm and be focused.

    Nearly forgot... please wear underwire bras. Your breasts will thank you, and if you get a proper fitting bra you won't feel the wire at all. Good luck!

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  59. This is really confusing. My under bust, when measured snugly (not tightly), is at 27". I've been wearing a 34" band for the past few years an they felt loose and occasionally rode up so I just recently bought some 32" bras. After wearing those for 1/2 an hour, I feel like I'm being strangled around my ribs...The cup size fits much better but I guess im just between band sizes...34" gives me little to no support while 32" sucks the life out of me

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  60. I measure 33.5 inches underbust and I'm all ribs (no squish to work with) but Victoria's Secret fitters put me in a 32. I'm DYING. Even on the loosest hook I feel compressed and breathless after about an hour, and if I leave it on all day I get nerve pain. Did I mention I'm totally small-chested? So this has nothing to do with big breasts pulling on the bra... My ribs are very wide for my size, and I'm at a loss to find anything that fits right. Bra extenders are so ugly.... maybe +2 would work for me after all.

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  61. I spent a fortune in House of Fraser getting better fitting bras. I measure 36" under and the lady fitted me with 36D which did look amazing on in the shop - I'm a size 14 so not slim. However, after a few hours I just felt so uncomfortable and could feel this horrible contraption on. I decided to try the +2 and go down a bust size which equates 38C I also measures under my armpits which came to 38". 36" on a tubby lady is far too tight fitting. I had Triumph & Lepel which will end up on ebay.

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  62. I am a 34 around my bust and a 35 around the cups. I used to wear 36A and I was in pain a lot of the time. It's been really affecting my life to be honest, and every time I could when I got home I'd take my bra off immediately. The thing is, my boobs are tiny. There's nothing pulling the bra down. I'm also underweight and very tall. Anyhow, I've now ordered a 38a so we will see... I just hope it won't hurt as much :(

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