Thoughts for the Road: Full-On-Top Boobs in a World of Lower Fullness

Today I spent a long time thinking about why I stopped blogging.

Part of it was (I’ll be honest) the hurt of reading questions on forums when I’d spent hours writing up detailed posts answering those very questions. It seemed like it wouldn't matter if I disappeared.

Another part of it is my continued ambivalence about my boobs. I've never been the type to enjoy showing off cleavage; I'm all about bras that minimize and tops that smash my boobs. I have to deal with having big boobs, and I refuse to act like it's hard (it's not), but I don't necessarily have to like it. And sometimes I just want to cling to the Tutti Rouge Liliana and live it up in flowy crop tops. (At the end of that post you can read about my concern that this bra would allow me to relapse into my insecurity. I guess maybe it did.) And that doesn't really give me much to blog about. I don't want to spread my ambivalence, but right now I've retreated into it.

Part of it is that my passion faded. The bra world dealt me a few minor blows, and a few major ones, which snowballed together and everything started to seem disappointing.

Tutti Rouge abandoned their cute aesthetic in favor of this upcoming Fifty Shades of Gray foolishness. Meanwhile their shipping to the US remains so high that I can’t justify ordering the bras I love from their current collection, even as they sell out one by one, never to be replaced.

Even worse news came from Freya. The Marvel, the best bra I ever found for my shape, didn’t even make it to a third season.  They’re “replacing” it with a modified side-support full-cup which doesn’t look like it will be open on top at all. They’ve also recently added piping to the top edges of their Deco, which will reduce gapping experienced by full-on-bottom users, but will mean it no longer works for full-on-top boobs. You can see from these comparison photos the way in which the Deco has been edging away from being full-on-top friendly for years. 

Old Freya Deco (Pomegranate)

Freya Ashlee (Deco Variant) in a cup size BIGGER

The new Deco has a tighter top edge like the Ashlee pictured, but the biggest change is a deeper, smaller apex that just does not work with full-on-top boobs.

Both these moves, I must assume, are meant to correct issues encountered by buyers with lower fullness, who make up the majority of the market. I GET all this, I understand. It is not really news to me. The best bras for full-on-top boobs will always live fast and die young. I know that the majority of boobs have lower fullness and I know that companies want and need to cater to the largest sections of their audiences. Still, I wish…

…that there were more of us?

That companies were willing to produce smaller runs of bras for us and just warn off the full-on-bottom buyers?

The alienation I felt as a woman with full-on-top boobs was the biggest, most painful, and most important reason I started a blog in the first place. I guess it’s ironic that now it’s the factor that’s forcing me out. At the time, it was so hard dealing with what felt like a world of bras that wouldn’t fit me in any size due to cutting in on the top edge. It was so hard having bras that looked cute on so many people make my boobs look so sad. The hardest thing was struggling with the fact that people erroneously assume the shape is a synonym for "perky", when in reality full-on-top boobs have a lower apex and tend to point down naturally. I know now that full-on-top boobs are not something to be ashamed of, they are just different than what most people have and are familiar with. But, oh, it was SO hard back then.

I try to be more philosophical now. I try to keep in mind the expanded options. I try to forget the worst slights . I try to snap up the best bras when they come around. I try to spread knowledge so that those who share my shape can feel okay with it.

But right now, I just don’t have the love in my heart, and I'm sorry. Let’s go over it one more time, together, because I don’t know how long it will be before I come back. Here’s how we full-on-top ladies can navigate a world of bras that just won’t work for us.

Bravissimo: The Boudoir Beau is the only unpadded balconette that can work. It’s still a wiggle, but it works. Half cups are always good (Bravissimo’s run small).

Cleo: Marcie is a good bet. Avoid Meg. For other balconettes, wide gores allow you to take in the gore to make the shape more open on top—another good bet (try Lucy, but expect to take in the gore).  Half cups (Juna) are always good.

Panache: Avoid the sea of full cups. Avoid Tango like the plague. Avoid Tango knockoffs. Seek only the rarer-than-hens’-teeth balconettes (like Sienna) and the full-cups with elastic on the top (Jasmine, Envy, Andorra, Clara).

Freya: Avoid the unpadded balconettes. (I know, I know… but save yourself the grief. Avoid them all.) Marvel is perfect (wide, though, if that’s not your thing). Patsy and other padded half-cups are a great bet. That includes the longlines. Unpadded plunge swimwear is a miracle. (Wear as a swimsuit, wear as a bra, wear as a shining shield of good feelings.) Look for the oldest Decos without the trim on the top edge.

Curvy Kate: Avoid all the balconettes, especially the padded ones. Half-cups (currently Ritzy, formerly Tease Me/Thrill Me) are a good bet.

Fantasie: Most are not ideal.

Masquerade: Half-cups (Rhea, Delphi) are always a good bet.

Tutti Rouge: Liliana works for the shallow. Betty (half-cup) is a good bet. Sophia/Mae is okay. Avoid Frankie/Olivia and Birds of a Feather/Evelyn and their knockoffs.

Avoid anything with horizontal seams.

Seek vertical seams.

Good luck out there.

A (Lazy) Guide to Washing Bras

The question of how to wash your bras becomes important when you find the perfect size, the perfect bra, and curate your ideal collection. I am always surprised to learn how many people throw their bras into the washer (which can be okay) and-GASP-the dryer (never okay). Conversely, it seems like people who make an effort to preserve their bras’ longevity often use expensive lingerie washes and complex drying techniques to avoid crushing cups. It came to my attention that many people are not aware that you can use normal detergent and a towel to wash and dry bras quickly with minimal damage. The perfectionists among us will, of course, want to continue with high-quality lingerie washes, which may perform better in the long run. For the lazy among us, here’s my technique. No mesh lingerie bags, special soaps, or salad spinners required.

Step One. Gather all the bras that need to be washed. Maybe it’s taken awhile to get around to it and you have a lot. Before starting, you must separate the colors. I know I said this is a lazy guide, but if you wash a red bra with a white bra you WILL finish with a red bra and a blotchy pink bra. Ruining your bras defeats the purpose of washing them, so separate them out. It’s fine to wash most pastel bras with white bras. Red goes only with red, other bright colors are best kept alone as well. You can toss navy in with black.

Step Two. Fill the sink with cold-ish water. Hot water is not awesome for the fabric of bras, but it helps avoid the issue of plunging your hands into a glacier to retrieve the bra, so I usually make the water lukewarm. Purists will want to use cold water.

Step Three. Get out your normal, regular detergent. There is no real reason why you should need a special cleanser to wash your bras unless they are extremely delicate, non-washable fabrics. Whatever you use on your normal laundry should be fine for the vast majority of normal full-bust bras, unless it contains bleach. I use fragrance free detergent due to sensitive skin, so I use that for my bras as well. If fragrance is okay with your normal laundry, it will be fine for your bras as well. It does not take much detergent. Imagine how much you would use for a regular load and picture how much smaller your bra is, then eyeball it.

Step Four. Reach into the water and swirl the detergent around a bit. Now put the bra or bras into the water and submerge, and swish them around a bit. You may see the water become slightly gray if the bra is dirty. (You might see the water become slightly red, and you'll be glad you followed my advice about keeping the colors separate!) If there are any particularly dirty areas, you can put a little more detergent on your fingers and rub it into those areas.

Step Five. Leave the bras in the sink until the water drains slowly out of the defective drain plug, or until your roommate needs to brush their teeth, whichever comes first. Drain the remaining water and hold the bra under running water until the water stops looks looking soapy. Squeeze some of the water out of the bra.

NOTE: It is also okay to wash your bras in the washing machine, and you don't need a special mesh lingerie bag to do it. You DO need to put the bra inside something, though, because in the case that an underwire should pop out in the wash, it can totally destroy your washing machine. The easiest thing to do is to pop the bra inside a pillowcase and tie the top in a single knot. The knot will tighten as it gets wet, helping keep the bra secure inside. Only wash bras on a cold cycle (which should also be fine for all your laundry, because it cleans just as well as hot and saves money and the environment). I haven't had issues with bra colors bleeding in a washing machine, but to be 100% safe, you can just keep red bras out of the machine. 

NEVER put a bra in the dryer. It will wear the elastic out hundreds of times faster than normal wear. Even if it doesn't look like the dryer destroys your bras, it causes long-term damage. Instead, proceed to:

Step Six—Drying. Some people would just hang the bra on a drying rack at this step, but with padded or molded bras, it can take days for a bra to dry like this. Instead, get out a clean towel and lay it on the floor. Place the bra on the towel. Now fold the towel around the bra. The bra itself should not get folded, so the bundle you end up with will still be the size and shape of the bra. Carefully fold this bundle in half along the gore (if you can’t find where that would be, don’t force it). Now, step and kneel on the towel bundle to crush all the water out of the bra. Unfold the towel. The bra should now be only slightly damp. Hang it to dry and it will be ready to wear in a matter of hours rather than days.

I like the towel trick because it allows you to essentially “wring out” the bra without having to twist and crush the shape and the fabric. It also helps get the water out of tricky areas, like straps, that can’t easily be wrung out. Molded bras might briefly get a tiny bit crushed this way, so again, purists may want to experiment with the salad spinner technique (pretty much what it sounds like). Or, drape a towel over your knee, place one bra cup over each knee, fold the towel over the top, and press down.

I hope my technique will help lazy women everywhere wash their bras in the quickest, easiest way possible! If anyone has any tips and tricks for washing bras, please share them in the comments.

Sleeping In A Bra--Is It Right For You?

Sleeping in a bra--especially a wired bra--is a fairly controversial topic because lots of women have a pretty strong opinion one way or another. There are three main camps: 

1. Women who cannot imagine sleeping in a bra due to discomfort, or who find it most comfortable to sleep braless (the largest group).

2. Women who sleep in an underwired bra and cannot imagine sleeping without the support of a bra with wires (a minority).

3. Women who prefer to sleep with support, but desire that support to be wireless. Members of this camp are often turned off by both the other methods.

There are also some of us who switch between methods depending on mood or circumstance.

I am a member of the smaller second camp, and I suspect a decent number of readers are making a face right now and thinking "Sleeping with wires? Wouldn't that be awfully uncomfortable?" I want to talk a little bit about my preference to do this because I think it has a few potential benefits that are not well known, and perhaps there are some readers who have not tried it but would like to. I don't want to 'convert' anyone, other than perhaps women who are uncomfortable sleeping braless and want information about a different option.
 

"Wouldn't that be awfully uncomfortable?" The answer is, some people do find it uncomfortable and therefore it's not a good method for them. I, however, find it to be more comfortable than any other method because of various tradeoffs, and I also find there are some other benefits to it as well. All of the methods have some benefits and some drawbacks, so I will go over my personal experience in the hopes that it can enlighten others. I would love to hear about other people's experiences in the comments.

I used to sleep braless, mostly because it was what I did when I was young and I continued to do it even once I was wearing bras every day. I was never very happy with the braless approach because I disliked the feeling of being unsupported. I especially hated waking up in the morning and either needing to put a bra on right away, or having to walk down the stairs gingerly clutching my chest. Eventually I began to experiment with various wireless options but was even more unsatisfied with them due to their tendency to push my boobs together so they touched in the center. Finally I started leaving my bra on all night out of pure laziness. I must say that it was a bit of an adjustment and in the first days, I would wake up wondering what had gotten into me that convinced me to sleep in a (new, non-broken-in) wired bra. After about a week and a switch to some better-broken-in bras, it started to seem totally normal and I have never looked back.

Since I began sleeping in a bra, I have noticed certain benefits. The shape of my boobs has actually changed somewhat. My theory is that since my boobs are rarely unsupported by a bra, the weight puts less stress on the skin, causing less loss of elasticity. My boobs are slightly more self-supporting now as the skin seems to have stretched back to a smaller shape. I believe this process was aided by my religious use of lotion and my youth, but that is not to say it could not happen to others as well. In addition to this small reversal of the work of gravity, I have a theory that sleeping in a bra (either wired or wire-free) could potentially reduce or delay changes in shape that come with age.

Obviously, all breasts will change over time, and that is fine and normal. According to most theories, the major factor supporting breasts naturally is your Cooper's ligaments. Your skin has some elasticity, which in some cases can cause very tiny shape changes, as I've described above. However, Cooper's ligaments don't have any way to bounce back from shape changes, which is why boobs usually lose elasticity as we age. This is a normal, inevitable process. Other factors can also cause shape changes--the most common being significant weight gains or losses, which is often something we cannot control for.

It does seem to be the case that relying on bras for support, rather than the Cooper's ligaments, causes less 'wear and tear' on them--many of us already rely on this during the day by wearing supportive, well-fitting bras. Good support matters most during the day, when you are moving around and standing/sitting upright. Depending on other factors like breast size, breast weight, and sleeping position, support during the night may also contribute. This theory is based on my personal experience and will be hard to prove, even over time due to the lack of a control group with identical breasts to mine. I've chosen to share my thoughts and experiences in case it is of interest to some women. I recognize others will disagree or have different experiences and I'm also looking to gather information about that from my readers.

What Kind of Bra Is Best for Sleeping?

If you are interested in trying out sleeping in a bra, don't just grab whatever bra you see in front of you. There are certain types of bras that are best suited to the practice. 

Wireless Bras

  A good option to start with is the wireless support style that I mentioned above. The upside is that you will never experience discomfort from poking wires. The downside is that good wireless bras can be nigh-impossible to find in large cup sizes. Unfortunately, a wireless bra, even while providing lift and support, will never be able to separate large heavy breasts unless it has a VERY firm structure—think all-over molding—which would possibly defeat the comfort purpose. You can check out Curvy Wordy's "Quest for a Sleep Bra" (links to other attempts at the bottom of this post) to see how difficult this search can be. If you don't mind your boobs touching, then this will not be an issue for you.

For those seeking out wireless options, there are several different categories you can check out. Several brands make wireless bras specifically for this purpose. From what I have heard, Panache's Sophie bra is one of the better options--I know two people who swear by it.

You can also check out sports bras without wires--Royce's Impact Free is one with which I have seen people have success as a sleep bra.

There are also nightwear items, likes those from Bravissimo, that provide a certain level of support. 

 

I personally find these to be less than ideal because they smoosh my boobs together and provide an unfathomable level of cleavage above the cup section, which for me nullifies the feeling of support. Part of the problem is, as a poster child for full-on-top boobs, I just have way too much breast tissue above where Bravissimo thinks I do. However, their nightwear line certainly has its fans and if you get along with Bravissimo's own-brand Alana-type bras, you most likely will have better luck with the nightwear items than I do.

A final option is just using a regular t-shirt or camisole that is tight enough to provide some level of support. In some size ranges, regular old camis with built-in bras might work surprisingly well for this.

Wired Bras

Although wireless bras are a good option for those craving a balance of support and comfort, an underwired bra will provide more separation, which is the major difference between wired and non-wired bras. My personal pet peeve is having my boobs touch in the middle all night, which makes it impossible for me to get comfortable, so wireless options are no good for me. I do NOT recommend wearing an underwired bra at night to those who find it uncomfortable--don't put yourself through pain; it's not for everyone. 

With that disclaimer out of the way, if you DO want to sleep in an underwired bra to get that separation, here is what to look for:

1. A high center gore to provide separation, especially if you sleep on your side or belly.

2.  A cup with a very round shape or a very well-fitted shape. It's tempting to sleep in a bra that doesn't suit your shape, since you won't be wearing it during the day, but that's not the best method. A cup that has more projection than your boobs--that is, empty space in the apex--won’t provide the same support while you are lying down as a bra that fits your boobs perfectly. It's also important to avoid bras that are too small or too tight in sections like the top. Any bra cup that smashes you down where you don't want to be squished could damage your boobs, whether it's during the day or night, so don't just jump to using your worst-fitting bras as sleep bras. However, it's fine to use bras that fall short in other ways--like displaying too much or too little cleavage, or having thick seams that show under shirts--as sleep bras.

3. The band should be looser than what you’d wear during the day. You don’t need nearly as much horizontal support while sleeping, and it’s important to allow your back a little break from that compression, especially if your boobs are heavy. An everyday bra that is past its prime due to lost elasticity in the band could be a good option. Personally, I buy bras in a band size up to use specifically as sleep bras.

My favorite sleep bras:

That's right--Curvy Kate's Thrill Me and Tease Me styles. These bras tick all the boxes for a perfect sleep bra--a high gore, a compact rounded shape that supports but doesn't smash me anywhere, too much cleavage for my preference during the day, and a nice comfortably stretchy band. 

When it comes to sleeping, you should do what makes you happy. Sleeping in a bra is certainly not for everyone, but if you're uncomfortable sleeping braless and have never tried sleeping in a bra, I recommend giving it a shot. You might be surprised at how comfy you find it...Or you might hate it and go straight back to bralessness. There’s only one way to find out.

Curvy Kate, Flirtelle, and the "Upside-Down Seven" Shape

I started this blog about two years ago with a huge pile of Curvy Kate bra reviews. At the time, the brand seemed like the best new hope for full-busted women--a fun brand with a great social media presence, cool contests, great colors, and a cheaper sister brand, Flirtelle. Yet now, even though all of those things are still true, I feel let down by Curvy Kate--particularly their unpadded balconette bras. I don't mean to suggest their unpadded balconettes don't work for anyone. That's far from true. But there are pervasive problems, which tend to intensify in the bigger cup sizes. The specific problem I want to address now is an issue of fabric tension. It is, I believe, largely responsible for the fabled "upside-down seven" shape.

What's the upside-down seven shape? It's a phrase that was coined by Bras and Body Image in this post and quickly entered the lexicon on Bratabase and other forums. It essentially refers to a shape where the upper curve of the breast takes on an extra angle where the bra ends. The profile in the bra beneath points too far down as a result.

Now, the tricky thing with the upside-down seven shape in Curvy Kate/Flirtelle is that there are two different stages where it can occur. The first stage occurs when trying a cup size that is too small in these brands. A large number of people will always get this shape if their cup is too small.

Upside-Down Seven Shape in a too-small Curvy Kate

So what's the next step? Size up and shorten the straps. And, to some extent, this works. That's why my initial reviews of Curvy Kate's unpadded bras were so positive once I found my size. I bought a ton of them and happily wore them... UNTIL...

Do you ever catch a glimpse of yourself in a mirror when you're not expecting it and suddenly realize "I NEED TO GET RID OF ALL MY BRAS"? That's what happened to me. Midway through the day, my Curvy Kate balconette had lost its lovely morning shape and my boobs were pointing at the ground.

What is behind this mysterious loss of shape throughout the day?

Bras and Body Image had it right on when she commented "It seems like the bottom section of the cup is not large enough to really give a well-rounded shape." Flipping this around, I believe the problem is that the upper section of the cups is TOO BIG. The top section is responsible for some shaping, but the bottom sections do the lion's share of the lifting. That's why bras where the bottom sections connect to the strap give better lift than bras where only the top section connects. When the bottom sections of a bra end too low, particularly if they end below the apex of the breast, the resulting vast expanse of fabric in the upper section often fails to achieve the desired lifting and shaping results.

With Curvy Kate and Flirtelle, though, there's more to it than that. The crux of the issue is their use of a fabric that DOES NOT STRETCH but CAN DISTORT. Let's get our terms straight here. When you grab the fabric in the top of a Curvy Kate balconette, you'll find that it can 'stretch' in all directions (along each grain and also diagonally to the grain). However, this isn't really stretch because there's no elastic in the fabric. That means it can change shape... but it can't change back. By contrast, the stretchy fabric in the top section of the Panache Andorra or Jasmine stretches, but it has the elastic to be able to bounce back and hold its shape even while adjusting to your shape. Other bras have no ability to stretch or distort in the top section. This tends to result in a trickier fit as it has to be perfect, but once you've found it, these bras won't change shape throughout the day. But fabric that distorts, but doesn't stretch, will embark each morning on a slow march toward loss of support. That's why you sometimes find a bra that looks great at first, but stops looking good later. It's not that you were temporarily deluded, it's that the bra actually changed.

For Curvy Kate and Flirtelle balconettes, the distorting fabric combined with the too-large top section means that these factors become a huge problem. For me, it's been enough to put me off these balconettes altogether. Let's look at how the shape changes on a Flirtelle Dahlia balconette.

At first, it's looking good:

Still looking pretty good:

Starting to look a little weird:

Not looking so good now:

By the last photo, I'm in full-on upside-down seven mode. And this is just after a few MINUTES of vigorously leaping around to simulate the effects of a day of walking and living life. In my opinion, it's really a shame that this issue with Curvy Kate and Flirtelle balconettes has persisted so long, so maybe it's time we start talking about it. These balconettes need firmer fabric that doesn't distort, or a little bit of elastic to fight those effects; or failing that, an upper section that is cut smaller. Please comment if you've had this problem with Curvy Kate. Was it solved by sizing up or did you find it persisted? I'm also curious to know if this problem is unique to full-on-top (FOT) boobs or is also experience by full-on-bottom (FOB) and balanced boobs.

Why Do Full-On-Top Boobs Look Pointy in Full-Cup Bras?

One of the most irksome aspects of the HerRoom bra shape quiz kerfuffle was their suggestion that full-on-top breast shapes would be suited to full cup bras. I've constantly asserted since starting my blog that that's not the case. But I never really explained WHY NOT, and I want to provide some visuals so people who are frustrated by this problem can grasp the central issue.

By now, you may be familiar with my "bra seam structure graphic".

The full-cup bra seam structure shown in the diagram isn't good at shaping boobs. But despite this, lots of people get a nice shape in full-cup bras and really like them. But others (hint: full-on-top ladies) tend to get a really pointy shape, and hate these bras. What's the secret behind this?

To start with, let's look at the sort of photos I usually DON'T post to this blog: my own full-on-top boobs looking really sad in a full-cup bra.

From the front, the Panache Loretta in a 30H fits well:

But from the side, you see the truth.

(Seeing this photo and keeping in mind the hefty percentage of bras that are made with this construction,   you might begin to realize why I named my blog "Bras I Hate.")

Now, in the first stages of putting this bra on and swooping/scooping, it appears to mostly fit but not suit my shape. But a few minutes of jiggling around make the problems worse...

And worse...

I know what you're thinking--you need a bigger size! In a way, yes, but largely no. Sizing up in this sort of bra WILL eliminate the bulging, but it will make the shape even worse and will create more and more extra space in the apex of the cup. Clearly this isn't a bra structure compatible with my shape. The problem? Full-cup bras provide a lot of support in the top section without enough openness. This tends to have a 'squashing' effect on those who have lots of tissue there. Combined with the lack of lift from the bottom, the shape is very downward-facing and pointy.

Why is it, though, that ladies with full-on-the-bottom boobs can still often get a nice shape in this sort of bra even though there isn't much lift from the bottom? Let's examine some graphics.

Here's what happens to full-on-top boobs in a full-cup bra.

The large amount of tissue that needs to sit outside the bra forms a really steep slope that, combined with the way the bra lies, creates this shape that most of us don't desire.

Here's what happens to boobs with lower fullness:

The gentler slope at the top of the boobs meshes well with the intended line of the bra's profile, and the result is a perky 'green shape'.

I hope this is enlightening to anyone who wonders why full-cup bras work or don't work on their shape. For those who don't like full-cup bras, don't worry, there's hope--balconettes and half-cups.

Clarifying Breast Shape: Full-on-top VS Full-on-bottom

This post is a follow-up to my most popular post of all time, How To Figure Out The Shape of Your Boobs.  I want to clear up a few common misconceptions and provide a few more hands-on methods for determining one's own shape.

This is the image I used in my original post. It shows what full on top versus full on bottom boobs tend to look like without a bra.

However, I did not talk about breast volume/elasticity in that post, nor did I talk about nipple placement. So let's fill in the gaps.

First off, here's a helpful method to determine your own shape. Take off your bra, stand in front of a mirror, and bend over at a 90 degree angle so that the top of your back is straight. Your breast will hang down and assume its natural shape without gravity confusing things. Wherever your nipple falls is the tip or apex of your breast (even if it doesn't lie where you might think the apex would be). In this position, you will be able to tell more easily if you have more tissue above the apex/nipple (towards your head) or below the apex/nipple (towards your stomach).

Full-on-top boobs will look something like this:

Full-on-the-bottom boobs will look more like this:

Note that not everyone has one shape or the other. If you have a balanced amount of tissue on either side, then you do not have either of these shapes, but rather you have breasts that are balanced--either full all over, or less full all over.

Another confusing factor I would like to address is breast volume or "perkiness"/"sagginess", which are factors that tend to change over a woman's lifetime. Most of us have more overall volume in the breast and are more "perky" when we are young, and as we age, we lose volume and skin elasticity and become more "saggy" (which is a horrible word, hence why I'm putting it in quotes). The relative perkiness of one's breasts, or lack thereof, does NOT alter the shape you have. I've seen a lot of people confusing "full on top" with "perky, young boobs." In fact, full-on-top boobs can be either perky or not-perky, and full-on-the-bottom boobs can likewise be either perky or not-perky. Your breasts will look different as you age, but the basic shape itself will typically not change.

Here is what breasts with upper fullness (full on top) versus lower fullness (full on the bottom) look like after loss of elasticity has occurred.

Note that I used the same breast shape in this drawing for both breast types. It is only the nipple placement--the natural apex--that is different. And that placement of the apex will affect what sort of bras suit each breast type.

So let's revisit my original image. Here are the two types with the nipple placement I had imagined:

 BUT, if the nipple placements were changed, then these shapes would represent the opposite types. Stay with me here. Here is the original "lower fullness" image with the nipple placement changed--now it shows a shape with UPPER fullness:

The reverse also holds true. When using the original "upper fullness" image, a simple change in nipple placement alters it to depict a breast with LOWER fullness. This is why the image in my original post was really not much use to dispel confusion.

Finally, I want to clarify that these two different breast shapes do not necessarily look different when they are in a well-fitting bra. When you are wearing a bra that gives support, uplift, and shape, your boobs should be supported all over regardless of where the tissue is in relation to the apex.

Here is what the two different types might look like in a well-fitted bra. I've chosen a round shape at random, but this will likely be the case with most shapes you can get in a bra. I've marked where the apex/nipple lies in relation to the center of the breast on the body.

Full on the bottom:

Full on top:

Again, note that I've shown these two different shapes on the same breast image--only the apex is different. However, it's also important to note that the different breast types cannot always wear the same kinds of bras. Some bras will work for both shapes, but others will not.

For example, bras that have a tight upper section (like Bravissimo's Alana and similar balconettes, or Freya's Arabella) do not work for full-on-top boobs. They will fit like this:

These bras are built for full-on-the-bottom boobs. Therefore, they have a longer arc in the bottom to the place where the apex of that breast type would fall, so breasts without lower fullness will not fill this area. Then the top section curves in too steeply to accommodate upper fullness. Sizing up will not fix these issues--it is the construction that is incompatible.

On the other hand, bras that are very loose in the top section (like the Cleo Chloe, Marcie, or Alexa) will gape on full-on-the-bottom boobs.

These bras have space to allow for a lot of upper fullness, so boobs that don't have volume there won't be able to full it. Sizing down can help, but it's not a perfect solution because then you will lose the room and space that you need at the bottom of the cup.

That's all for now, folks. I hope this has helped clear up some of the confusion regarding different breast types. It can definitely be complicated to figure out, but there are a lot of clues that can help along the way.

What's on BrasiHate's Holiday Wishlist? Something For All Of Us...

Sometimes it really strikes me how far the G+ lingerie industry has come in the past few years. When I first got fitted into a 30GG from a 34DD in 2007, Cleo by Panache and Curvy Kate were not on the map yet. Bravissimo hadn’t started making their own brand bras, and even if they had I didn’t know they existed. The only options available to me then were Freya, Fantasie and Panache. So sometimes when I consider how far we’ve come, I’m just staggered by the massive number of options that are available to me now in a 30H. There are even department store brands (Debenhams) and brands I haven’t even heard of (Gorteks, anyone?) or know next to nothing about (Kris Line) that make bras in my size and are sold on accessible websites at low prices.

But at the same time, there’s something missing for me: the science. Even as the options increase, and as new companies add their offerings, I find the D+ and G+ lingerie scene isn’t really changing that much. It seems like everyone wants to make cute, frilly bras in fashion colors, but I don’t see much innovation in the actual structure of these bras. I have been really glad to see lots of companies starting to regularly add side support panels to their full cup bras, because those panels are necessary for a full-cup bra to give a fully uplifted shape. For instance, Panache’s Emily, Andorra, and Jasmine have side support panels; most of Fantasie’s full coverage bras now have them; Elomi uses them in most bras; and Bravissimo’s new full-cup Melrose and Linear Rose bras have side-support panels too. So I can finally update my bra seam structure graphic to reflect this:

But on the other hand, I also haven’t seen any brand make true advances in the quality or design of their bands or underwire. Instead, everyone is just bringing out fashion color after fashion color, floral print after floral print, without making any real changes. It’s great to have those options, but I’m really hoping for more this year. So I present Bras I Hate’s rather unconventional holiday wish-list—it’s not things I only want for myself, as I have so many bras already, but things I’d like to challenge the lingerie industry to create!

1.      A babydoll that isn’t sheer in the body and is long enough to cover the butt.

 Even if I didn’t mind a sheer babydoll, there’s nothing right now that comes in my size! My closest bets would be the Parfait by Affinitas Honey, which goes up to a G cup but runs small, or something from Figleaves, again in a G. Cleo is going to be coming out with a babydoll version of the Marcie in black, and I expect that to come in my size—but even when that comes out, it will still be sheer and short and that’s not what I want from my nightwear. What I’m really looking for is a nightgown that is attached to a well-fitting bra with proper underwires. Here is my mock-up of what that might look like:

Curvy Kate Tease Me babydoll, featuring the lovely Lizzie

Babydoll with Curvy Kate Elegance, featuring the beautiful Emma

       In the spirit of experimentation, in the new year I’m going to try my hand at making one of these. It shouldn’t really be too hard; all it would require is some fabric sewn to the bottom of a bra band and finished off nicely. I’m planning to use one of the Curvy Kate Showgirl half-cups, which is what I sleep in, or maybe the Curvy Kate Elegance that fascinated me so much last year for a sexier effect. Expect updates as I figure this out!

2.    A bra with an included camisole in “ahh-bra” material, that zips up the front. 

To explain this one, I am essentially looking for something like a very practical, everyday basque with no boning in crazy-stretchy material. I’m of the firm belief that the stretchier a bra band is, the better—cut it really small, but let it stretch a lot! I hate bands that are too big but simultaneously un-stretchy—those lead to back pain AND bulges.

The camisole material would ideally be somewhere between shapewear and the kind of material you get in a seamless camisole. I like the idea of having a super-super-longline cut because there are days when I really would love to be able to spread out the support over my whole torso, rather than just focusing on a small area of my back. Big boobs get heavy sometimes!

Finally, I’d like this comfy everyday contraption to be easy to do up oneself. So I’m going to suggest something that may cause gasps—a front closure. And because it would need to have the proper strength in this closure, I’m going to put my vote forward for a thin zipper that would go all the way up the front.

Here’s a mock-up!

My idea for a bra/camisole--featuring the Freya Deco

       3.   My third wish-list item is simpler. I’d like to see more practical options—more beige, brown, black, and light pink bras that are simple, but still pretty. I’m not looking for a twenty-way convertible, and I’m not looking for anything plunging or molded or seamless—I just wish there were more well-fitting options in colors that blend in under clothing. The brands that make the best unpadded bras continue to focus HEAVILY on fashion colors and prints. I wish there were a better balance. And I think there is also a gap in the market when it comes to CUTE practical options. It seems like the majority of bras in beige-y colors are also a bit boulder-holder-looking, or very plain with no decoration at all. I’d like a few little bows and maybe a lace texture—that wouldn’t effect the practicality of a beige, light pink, brown, or black bra, but it would make it a better ego boost!

      4.      Bras with bands that have a higher stretch content and are positioned lower on the back, to eliminate bulges. 

          I've talked about this before. I wish bands were wider, made of thicker material, and more 'seamless' to prevent awkward bulges. I also feel quite strongly that bra bands should be positioned at a slightly different angle than is common to give the best support and comfort, and to eliminate those bulges. Most British brands have their bands angled like so:

Bra with band angled too high creates bulges even when it fits

Whereas the ideal bra band should be positioned at a slightly lower angle:

Ideal lower angle for a bra band eliminates back bulges

In my few experiences trying Ewa Michalak, I’ve noticed their bands do sit lower, as in the second image. The difference in comfort and appearance is really revolutionary.

5.    Bras with cushioned underwire… seriously, G+ companies, get on this!!! Victoria’s Secret has been making bras with underwires encased entirely in a foam channel for YEARS. If a company that doesn’t even admit G cups EXIST can manage this technical innovation, I’d really expect the more enlightened companies to start working hard on it. Whoever introduces this first is bound to see a BIG bump in business because everyone will flock to them.

Well, there you have it--that's what I'm hoping to see from D+ and G+ lingerie companies in the coming year and beyond. Let me know in the comments if you have any other bright ideas for innovative bra design!

HerRoom.Com Makes Me Want To Punch A Seagull

Note: Readers, I've just found an email I received from Herroom asking me to remove the copyrighted images from this post, as I did not receive permission to use them. I regret not checking my blog email account more often, as I would have found their message sooner. I had intended to show the images for what they are, as they are useful and well done in certain ways (albeit offensive in others), while taking issue with Herroom's phrasing. Legally, I do have the right to use their images without permission in a post that is critical of them. It is not as though I did not mention the source of the images. But it was my mistake to not realize they would react strongly and go on the offensive. The images are removed for now. I'm going to replace them with images of my own that explain what I'm trying to get across. For now, there will just be spaces there--hopefully I'll be able to replace the images with my own images soon.

*Note about the title. I asked my sister if it was a weird title and she said yes. My boyfriend gets really annoyed about noise pollution when he's studying and once said "If I hear another saxophone I am going to punch a seagull." I thought it was hilarious so I'm using it now in my moment of rage. I actually think seagulls are awesome and will not be punching any. I might punch my computer screen, though. Read on to see why:

On a reader's suggestion, I just went to Herroom.com to try out their new "Know Your Breasts" feature. You can check it out here if you're feeling like you've got a thick skin today and can handle some bizarre textual insults about features you never knew you needed to be insecure about.

On the surface, this is an awesome idea--a website that sells bras teaches you how to identify your shape and what works for that shape, and then directs you to those bras. Of course, they are just doing it to try to raise sales for themselves--they obviously don't link you to the cheapest source for a bra, or to better bras that they don't carry, but still. I was actually kind of miffed at first because it would have sort of negated the whole purpose of my blog if it had worked, ha ha. This freaking thing was apparently even featured in the New York Times. Well, BEWARE, girls! We still need blogs because bra sellers and manufacturers STILL don't understand how boobs work! Rage courses through my veins!

To start with I'm going to just go through the problems with the results I got for my shape. I will go into further detail about the results for different shapes later... hopefully with help from you guys, if you do try it out.

The first thing I should mention is that at first I was super impressed by the quiz! They asked a lot of pertinent questions in the first part of the quiz and the illustrations are AWESOME. They show the differences between full-on-top and full-on-bottom better than I could, plus hopefully it will bring those concepts to a wider audience (and help people to realize that full-on-top is NOT a synonym for perky). Of course, the images were all extremely nipply, so here's my slightly less NSFW censorship to show how well they did with these images:

(Image removed)

The boobs on the top left are the shape I consider "full on top". These images are a pretty similar, but more detailed, less teal version of the images I drew in my post on how to figure out the shape of your boobs:

There's a reason I made my image teal, too, by the way... Humans don't have just one skin color, and since none of us have teal skin, I figured it would apply to all of us equally. HerRoom didn't do the same... why are all their boobs white? ALL of them?

My next prickling of discomfort came when, instead of calling full-on-top boobs "full-on-top", they chose to go with "oversized upper breasts."

(Image Removed)

As you might know from my blog, I really hate terms like "oversized," "huge", "abnormal", etc. Seriously, HerRoom, why not just say "FULL upper breasts?" After all, that's what you MEANT--and that doesn't carry a connotation that there is an ideal "normal-sized upper breast" and I fall outside of that golden category. This sort of linguistic subtlety is pretty basic, folks, especially when you're writing about boobs and trying to convince women to pay your high prices.

After establishing your shape, the quiz then goes through some more questions with varying degrees of interest and relevance. Some of the questions regard things I never thought about before, like protruding versus inverted collarbones, and loose skin near the armpit which apparently is common in older women. Some of the other stuff just seemed kind of awkward and unecessary. Do not even ask me why they need to know whether or not you have "large areolas." That affects the fit of a bra how??? It sort of seemed like it was just another opportunity for Herroom to draw attention to "normal" versus "abnormal" features. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't see how an areola of any size or shape would have any effect on bra fit. It's just skin that's a different color, really not a big deal at all.

They make you enter an email address to get your results. I fortunately have an email account that I use just for spammy things like this, so I used that--I'd advise doing the same unless you want Herroom to be your newest pen pal. I was still pretty hopeful about my results at this point--not hopeful because I need help, since I know what works for me, but hopeful that the quiz would be awesome and I could recommend it to people.

NOPE!

The bra styles they suggested for my full-on-top boobs (which are NOT oversized, thank you very much) were the total OPPOSITE of what works for me. They are, for the most part the bras I would suggest for someone who has lower fullness. Not one of the shapes they suggested would work for me. Let's examine.

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So first, they give your "very personal results", which are actually just a summary of all the things YOU selected in the quiz... things you already knew. (This also includes a flash of the other thing I LOATHE about HerRoom, their pathetic "Universal Cup Sizing" initiative. Post on that coming later on.)

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 First off, seamless bras. Okay, seamless bras could, in theory, work for full-on-top boobs, but in my general experience, they don't. That's because they are generally made with a lot of space in the apex that is either evenly distributed between the bottom and top of the cup (leaving full-on-top girls looking pointy because they can only fill out the top, and vice versa) or mostly at the bottom, meaning epic quad-boob. Not their worst suggestion (just wait) but a slightly odd one.

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 Multi-what under-who? I assume by this they just mean "seamed bras." Okay... seamed bras can work for every shape, but it is the seam PATTERN that makes or breaks the fit on a particular shape. In the upper sizes, seamed bras are just about all there is, so this suggestion doesn't exactly narrow it down for someone who might be looking for guidance.

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 Say what? Bandeau bras? HerRoom declares that strapless bras will be difficult for me because of my "bountiful upper breast". Okay, "bountiful" is better than "oversized," but a kinda pervy word. It's true, by the way, that strapless bras are tricky. They're tricky for ALL shapes, just for different reasons. Strapless bras are tricky for full-on-top boobs because there is so much weight pushing down from the top, it tends to push the bra into a torpedo/football shape. Strapless bras are difficult for boobs with lower fullness because it is hard to lift the weight at the bottom. I guess I just don't think that a bandeau bra would be any better, or even any different, really. I will also bet you a million dollars that HerRoom doesn't sell any bandeau bras in my size.

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 Okay, that one is basically the same as the first suggestion. I'm baffled by their description, though. These bras "will provide modesty and help mask your lower apex"? Um, NO. You don't "mask" a lower apex--that would mean squashing your boobs down and pretending the apex is somewhere else, which is really bad for your breast tissue and will increase sagging over the years. Instead, you should seek a bra that is lower-cut and hence has an apex that more closely matches your own. (By 'apex', HerRoom and I both essentially mean "where the nipples hit", by the way.) Bras that have less volume in the cup can also help for some people, but that's not true for everyone.

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This gave me a bit of a laugh. Nipple concealers? This was after I had selected "No" to the question about whether I struggled with nipple show-through. So.. not really in need of this "smooth look", but thanks anyway.

And finally, THE ULTIMATE WORST ADVICE I'VE EVER HEARD:

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 HerRoom suggests full-coverage bras. For full-on-top boobs. THE WORST PAIRING EVER. Full-coverage bras will basically NEVER work for full-on-top boobs because they are DESIGNED to cover and contain all of your upper breast tissue. Those of us with upper fullness will always struggle to find a good fit in full coverage bras like this because there just isn't enough space for our "bountiful", "oversized" upper breast tissue. Full-coverage + full-on-top = horrible quad boob. Just... never. Not even. No.

Because HerRoom failed so spectacularly at giving any reasonable advice, I'm going to give my own. I've given these same tips before, but not all in the same place, so here they are.

The most important thing to note is that these styles are the OPPOSITE of what works well for boobs with lower fullness! The bras I've pictured, especially the vertical-seam bras, often can give a ton of gaping on full-on-the-bottom boobs. I'll do another post later where I check out what HerRoom has to say about boobs with lower fullness.

One thing I'm glad HerRoom brought up, though, is the question of distance between boobs. I do best with the bra styles I've pictured above, but I don't have a lot of space between my boobs, and several of those bras have very wide gores. That's why I alter my center gores. Distance between boobs is definitely a topic deserving its own post later!